I dont think Mondo is doping. He just had it all "served on a plate"...
Great genes and parents who encouraged n took care of the training.
I just thinks it a case of a guy finding his true calling early in life n getting a perfect environment to bloom in.
I mean honestly, if we all had those circumstances im sure we would all be better at whatever craft we find...
With that said, Greg his father, was an athlete in a day n age when roid use was pretty normal. Given that he seem to be a bit bitter for not getting to an olympic games n doing everything in his power (for ex switching to Sweden) not to let it happen to Mondo nothing should be ruled out. But i doubt it.
If I had to pick one it's definitely a field event, I think Duplantis, Rojas, and Crouser are all clean. Hard to be too confident in any track records but I do buy Rudisha. The guy who said you can't dope the 800 is silly but it is an event where there's no one dominant PED, and like another poster he said, he was less than a second faster than Coe was decades before. The latter half of his career being marred by injuries is also a point in his favor.
Womens - all normal event WRs are doped, too much benefit from PEDs or the athlete was intersex.
Mens - I think Bolt doped (too many Jamaicans did at the time), so the discussion starts with the 400. I think Michael Johnson 100% used PEDS, but Van Niekerk is more of what I would expect an elite 400m to look like, but I'm not 100% sure. The 800m is probably doped, all Kenyan's sadly I doubt now. The 1500m thru marathon were all doped. Field events, Pole vault is maybe the most likely clean. Long jump - no, triple jump - no (set in 1995 no way that is clean). I do wonder about Crouser but I honestly think he is clean. I think the training and technique have improved enough to beat the doped athletes prior.
So in summary - zero women's events, for men maybe the 400m, pole vault, and shot put.
You haven't a clue about doping. Chess players dope. So do championship darts competitors. It aids anything that applies to any competitive task - intellectual or physical, and the pole-vault is certainly physical. Duplantis will be competing against doped athletes who have the same kind of talent that he will have. So he dopes to beat them.
You are an idiot. You know nothing about being a pole vaulter, or coaching one.
Is it an athletic activity? Then athletes will dope.
You haven't a clue about doping. Chess players dope. So do championship darts competitors. It aids anything that applies to any competitive task - intellectual or physical, and the pole-vault is certainly physical. Duplantis will be competing against doped athletes who have the same kind of talent that he will have. So he dopes to beat them.
I literally wrote a book on the topic.
I also compete internationally for the red, white and blue. I line up against dopers, some of whom get caught, some who do not.
Attacking someone who knows far more about the topic than some average keyboard warrior does nothing to address the question.
Make a case that Mondo Duplantis, specifically, MUST be on drugs to do what he does, or move on. As for competing against "athletes who have the same kind of talent," who may or may not be doping (you are rooting your position on an assumption), which of those vaulters started as young as he did or had the same access to incredible coaching almost from the day they came out of the womb?
While your premise is generally correct, it is not a law. Breaking records set by generations of highly trained athletes, all of whom are also genetic freaks and benefitted from doping would likely require doping as well. But setting the record in an event that does not require any superhuman speed or strength and has a very limited number of participants could be different.
I do not argue that Duplantis MUST be doped but the probability is that he dopes, like every other world record-holder and championship gold-medallist. The reason is not about him specifically but what it takes to get to the top in sport - any sport.
My argument is that the very best in sports will be almost certainly be doped because with the presence of doping throughout sport it is extremely unlikely that clean athletes will beat doped athletes of equivalent ability. At the top in sports the differences in ability are very small; doping will make a crucial difference in outcome.
Duplantis is competing in a sport that requires fantastic athletic ability combined with technique. Drugs will aid both - as it does for baseball players, basketballers and tennis players. For him to be better than any other competitor - past or present requires believing either that previous polevaulters have not doped and do not dope - in which case they are the lone exception in sports - or that drugs can aid sprinters, distance runners, baseball players, darts competitors and chess players - every kind of sports competitors - but not athletes like polevaulters. I do not find either view credible.
You haven't a clue about doping. Chess players dope. So do championship darts competitors. It aids anything that applies to any competitive task - intellectual or physical, and the pole-vault is certainly physical. Duplantis will be competing against doped athletes who have the same kind of talent that he will have. So he dopes to beat them.
This is just the most rubbish take. Athlete ‘A’ was on drugs and Athlete ‘B’ did better than them, thus Athlete ‘B’ is also on drugs? Complete crap. And I say this as someone who has worked in professional athletics for a very long time and knows many of the names being bandied about here. You are well and truly out of your depths on this one.
Far and away, the biggest areas of concern that we have with respect to doping today come from the former Soviet states, some of the nascent athletics programs in places like Turkey and Bahrain, as well as in road racing. I’ve seen some blatantly obvious illegitimate performances in road racing, largely because the field of athletes is so massive that there are not the resources to have every single possible potential winner in the out of competition testing pool ahead of time. I have seen aged Kenyans come out of nowhere, knock minutes off their PB and celebrate with their coach of dubious background and then quickly disappear again. Or you see an Ethiopian win a marathon who has been training under a Russian in Turkey. Those dots are not hard to connect, however, it’s still a difficult thing to get a handle on.
It is a long argument but it is little more than that you have observed apparent doping in inferior athletes so you don't believe the best athletes will dope. You also seem to think that it is a problem only with some nationalities. Neither is true. Doping is known to be present in all countries and we have seen Olympic champions and world record holders dope. It is unsurprising. When you have seen "aged Kenyans" knock minutes off their pr's, why wouldn't better athletes do the same?
You also place far too much stock in the efficacy of testing. Testing results in only 1-2% positives yet the prevalence of doping is known to far exceed that. Athletes today know how to dope and not get caught. If they want to be the best they will have to dope because they know their competitors will be.
I dont think Mondo is doping. He just had it all "served on a plate"...
Great genes and parents who encouraged n took care of the training.
I just thinks it a case of a guy finding his true calling early in life n getting a perfect environment to bloom in.
I mean honestly, if we all had those circumstances im sure we would all be better at whatever craft we find...
With that said, Greg his father, was an athlete in a day n age when roid use was pretty normal. Given that he seem to be a bit bitter for not getting to an olympic games n doing everything in his power (for ex switching to Sweden) not to let it happen to Mondo nothing should be ruled out. But i doubt it.
Ryan crousers wr is legit.
Your arguments would apply to just about every top athlete - family, genes, opportunity, training etc. But they still dope.
If I had to pick one it's definitely a field event, I think Duplantis, Rojas, and Crouser are all clean. Hard to be too confident in any track records but I do buy Rudisha. The guy who said you can't dope the 800 is silly but it is an event where there's no one dominant PED, and like another poster he said, he was less than a second faster than Coe was decades before. The latter half of his career being marred by injuries is also a point in his favor.
You seem unaware that in athletics field-events have long been the subject of doping and well before the running events. Any strength event absolutely guarantees it.
I also compete internationally for the red, white and blue. I line up against dopers, some of whom get caught, some who do not.
Attacking someone who knows far more about the topic than some average keyboard warrior does nothing to address the question.
Make a case that Mondo Duplantis, specifically, MUST be on drugs to do what he does, or move on. As for competing against "athletes who have the same kind of talent," who may or may not be doping (you are rooting your position on an assumption), which of those vaulters started as young as he did or had the same access to incredible coaching almost from the day they came out of the womb?
While your premise is generally correct, it is not a law. Breaking records set by generations of highly trained athletes, all of whom are also genetic freaks and benefitted from doping would likely require doping as well. But setting the record in an event that does not require any superhuman speed or strength and has a very limited number of participants could be different.
I do not argue that Duplantis MUST be doped but the probability is that he dopes, like every other world record-holder and championship gold-medallist. The reason is not about him specifically but what it takes to get to the top in sport - any sport.
My argument is that the very best in sports will be almost certainly be doped because with the presence of doping throughout sport it is extremely unlikely that clean athletes will beat doped athletes of equivalent ability. At the top in sports the differences in ability are very small; doping will make a crucial difference in outcome.
Duplantis is competing in a sport that requires fantastic athletic ability combined with technique. Drugs will aid both - as it does for baseball players, basketballers and tennis players. For him to be better than any other competitor - past or present - requires believing either that previous polevaulters have not doped and do not dope - in which case they are the lone exception in sports - or that drugs can aid sprinters, distance runners, baseball players, darts competitors and chess players, indeed every kind of sports competitors, but not athletes like polevaulters. I do not find either view credible.
Genetic freak + best training + best coaching + correct diet + technology advances + DOPING > Genetic freak + best training + best coaching +correct diet + technology advances WITHOUT DOPING.
(When all else is equal, the small percent gained from doping is crucial).
To hold a record, representing the extreme right tail of a distribution of tens and even hundreds of thousands of performers, all pursuing great personal and financial reward, requires doing everything possible (including doping) to separate from the field (both current and historical).
So, we could say "All records result from doping" and end the thread.
But the question was essentially WHICH record could be clean, not whether any are clean.
I pick the pole vault.
WHY?
You have a tiny fraction of the competitors as the other events, most of those started later in life (high school), very few have great coaching, entire parts of the world ignore the event altogether or are very poor at it. So, right off the bat you could argue that the record is "soft" compared to other records.
Then you have a guy who:
Has a dad that vaulted over 19 feet, and a mother who was a heptathlete and volleyball player.
First messed around with vaulting at age three.
Has a brother who also represented Sweden at the World Youth Championships.
Holds the age-group records from age seven to twelve and held the record for 13 (since broken). At age ten he was better than the records for eleven and twelve year olds as well.
Won the World Youth Champions (2015) at age 15.
Cleared 18' in high school, setting an age 16 record.
One year later cleared 18'10.5 to set the World Indoor Junior Record.
In 2018 he improved to 19'1.5" then 19'3.5" then 19'10.
It took another two years to reach 20'3". Since then he has added little increments here and there.
Conclusion:
If I was looking for a record to bet on as clean, I would take the one in which there is a relatively small field of competitors who are properly trained, have access to great coaching, have the best equipment, etc., and the record holder started very young and has a progression that appears as normal as we could expect for a World Record Holder,
I do wonder about Crouser but I honestly think he is clean. I think the training and technique have improved enough to beat the doped athletes prior.
.
And how is he beating all the doped athletes of today with the same technique and training improvements? You can start arguing about how few people take the event seriously and the like but the reality is we know steroids helps power events a ton.
This is just the most rubbish take. Athlete ‘A’ was on drugs and Athlete ‘B’ did better than them, thus Athlete ‘B’ is also on drugs? Complete crap. And I say this as someone who has worked in professional athletics for a very long time and knows many of the names being bandied about here. You are well and truly out of your depths on this one.
Far and away, the biggest areas of concern that we have with respect to doping today come from the former Soviet states, some of the nascent athletics programs in places like Turkey and Bahrain, as well as in road racing. I’ve seen some blatantly obvious illegitimate performances in road racing, largely because the field of athletes is so massive that there are not the resources to have every single possible potential winner in the out of competition testing pool ahead of time. I have seen aged Kenyans come out of nowhere, knock minutes off their PB and celebrate with their coach of dubious background and then quickly disappear again. Or you see an Ethiopian win a marathon who has been training under a Russian in Turkey. Those dots are not hard to connect, however, it’s still a difficult thing to get a handle on.
It is a long argument but it is little more than that you have observed apparent doping in inferior athletes so you don't believe the best athletes will dope. You also seem to think that it is a problem only with some nationalities. Neither is true. Doping is known to be present in all countries and we have seen Olympic champions and world record holders dope. It is unsurprising. When you have seen "aged Kenyans" knock minutes off their pr's, why wouldn't better athletes do the same?
You also place far too much stock in the efficacy of testing. Testing results in only 1-2% positives yet the prevalence of doping is known to far exceed that. Athletes today know how to dope and not get caught. If they want to be the best they will have to dope because they know their competitors will be.
I’m doubting if you got the balance of what I wrote earlier. I know this world and I’ve got a much better than average read on which athletes are genuine and which are not.
You’re asking why wouldn’t all of them train with Russians or other unsavoury characters and cheat their way to the top? For one, the ABP is effective and athletes in general, and especially those that have been around for some time, are being held more accountable than they were in the past.
For another, most athletes want to do this the right way. It boggles my mind that you think that a professional athlete is, by definition, a dishonest and deceitful person. To be some are, and I’ve known more than a few. Few things in sport are worse than seeing a deserving athlete left off the podium because a fraud finished ahead of them.
Fortunately, most at the top levels of our sport are not of that mindset and have no desire to go against the rules. I’ve known too many too well to think otherwise.
Genetic freak + best training + best coaching + correct diet + technology advances + DOPING > Genetic freak + best training + best coaching +correct diet + technology advances WITHOUT DOPING.
(When all else is equal, the small percent gained from doping is crucial).
To hold a record, representing the extreme right tail of a distribution of tens and even hundreds of thousands of performers, all pursuing great personal and financial reward, requires doing everything possible (including doping) to separate from the field (both current and historical).
So, we could say "All records result from doping" and end the thread.
But the question was essentially WHICH record could be clean, not whether any are clean.
I pick the pole vault.
WHY?
You have a tiny fraction of the competitors as the other events, most of those started later in life (high school), very few have great coaching, entire parts of the world ignore the event altogether or are very poor at it. So, right off the bat you could argue that the record is "soft" compared to other records.
Then you have a guy who:
Has a dad that vaulted over 19 feet, and a mother who was a heptathlete and volleyball player.
First messed around with vaulting at age three.
Has a brother who also represented Sweden at the World Youth Championships.
Holds the age-group records from age seven to twelve and held the record for 13 (since broken). At age ten he was better than the records for eleven and twelve year olds as well.
Won the World Youth Champions (2015) at age 15.
Cleared 18' in high school, setting an age 16 record.
One year later cleared 18'10.5 to set the World Indoor Junior Record.
In 2018 he improved to 19'1.5" then 19'3.5" then 19'10.
It took another two years to reach 20'3". Since then he has added little increments here and there.
Conclusion:
If I was looking for a record to bet on as clean, I would take the one in which there is a relatively small field of competitors who are properly trained, have access to great coaching, have the best equipment, etc., and the record holder started very young and has a progression that appears as normal as we could expect for a World Record Holder,
I don't disagree that Duplantis could have had every advantage, including outstanding talent, but at a world level I'm not inclined to believe the event is "softer" than any other field event, like the triple jump, hammer, or discus or javelin. The events draw those who are best suited to them. The standard in all is very demanding at international level. I used to enjoy watching Isinbayeva in the women's pole vault. She was a fantastic athlete and performer. I don't think she was successful because her event was "soft".
It is a long argument but it is little more than that you have observed apparent doping in inferior athletes so you don't believe the best athletes will dope. You also seem to think that it is a problem only with some nationalities. Neither is true. Doping is known to be present in all countries and we have seen Olympic champions and world record holders dope. It is unsurprising. When you have seen "aged Kenyans" knock minutes off their pr's, why wouldn't better athletes do the same?
You also place far too much stock in the efficacy of testing. Testing results in only 1-2% positives yet the prevalence of doping is known to far exceed that. Athletes today know how to dope and not get caught. If they want to be the best they will have to dope because they know their competitors will be.
I’m doubting if you got the balance of what I wrote earlier. I know this world and I’ve got a much better than average read on which athletes are genuine and which are not.
You’re asking why wouldn’t all of them train with Russians or other unsavoury characters and cheat their way to the top? For one, the ABP is effective and athletes in general, and especially those that have been around for some time, are being held more accountable than they were in the past.
For another, most athletes want to do this the right way. It boggles my mind that you think that a professional athlete is, by definition, a dishonest and deceitful person. To be some are, and I’ve known more than a few. Few things in sport are worse than seeing a deserving athlete left off the podium because a fraud finished ahead of them.
Fortunately, most at the top levels of our sport are not of that mindset and have no desire to go against the rules. I’ve known too many too well to think otherwise.
I don't think a professional athlete is a "dishonest and deceitful person". I think however they are incredibly ambitious and their sport is their life. For them doping is no longer cheating but using every opportunity they have to succeed. Theirs is a completely different world from what the fans imagine it is. You may think you know them well enough to believe they wouldn't dope but we often find that those we think we know have a part of their nature they conceal well and we never know about it until one day it emerges or they get caught. Dopers don't wear a sign on their forehead.
Some nations cheat more easily than others because of their cultures (Kenya comes to mind) and because antidoping is weak. But even where there is more rigorous antidoping athletes have learned how to beat the ABP. David Howman concedes that doping is always ahead of antidoping.
Doping is a huge business - it is estimated at being well over a billion dollars world-wide - because sport is big business. There are huge amounts of money at stake in pro sport.
When I watch professional sport now it is inconceivable that athletes could perform day-in and day-out at the level they do without help of some kind. It isn't "training, nutrition and shoes" that do it.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
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