Buyers should be aware that buying used carbon is a really, really not-great idea. It's VERY hard to discern whether a carbon frame has been damaged, and the usual advice is to NEVER use carbon stems and handlebars of unknown provenance.
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From the depths of the North Atlantic sea floor, I totally approve this message.
Yeah, what's funny about this conversation is that when I briefly tried to get into cycling (soon after college track ended) there was no way I could afford anything close to an "entry-level" bike. I was fine riding around on a bike held together by scotch tape but I wasn't exactly tempted to get into the sport seeing that the next level of bike cost as much as a nice vacation.
Cycling has jumped the shark big time. It really wasn't that long ago that it could be pursued as a reasonable 'middle class' thing. Now it's usually the province of the well heeled and I have zero interest. Carbon wonder bikes that (1) cost thousands, (2) creek endlessly and (3) can't survive a crash? GTFO.
I go to the trail head for a run and if I see a group of cyclists, it's almost always rich bro-types pulling their carbon wonder bikes off of their hitch racks, bragging, busting each others' balls like 14 year olds.
Gross.
I have been a cyclist for a long time. I used to race and was a lot more serious about it all. Now I pretty much ride just for fitness and may do some charity rides or tours here and there.
There have always been posers in cycling - guys with bikes far more expensive than what they need. They would also like to brag about their exploits but once you got out and rode with them you would see that they were all talk. The guys that you're seeing, the "rich bro-types," are most likely posers. It's nothing new. It's just that now, the equipment that they use has changed. More may be riding carbon bikes where 30 years ago they may have been on expensive steel Italian steeds.
One of the funniest things in cycling was a poser that ordered a titanium bike from Litespeed. This was when the Lynskey family was still involved with Litespeed and before they split off to start their own company. Both companies make fine bikes. Anyway, this guy had his name monogrammed on the top tube and it was misspelled. Hilarious.
To your other comment about carbon fiber bikes creaking endlessly, that's what happens when you use a press fit bottom bracket instead of a threaded one. No surprise there.
The sales model for bikes is broken and it leads to higher prices to the consumer. There are too many middlemen (distributors and shops) requiring overhead and driving cost up. Companies like Canyon (there are some others too) are trying to streamline this and give a better price point to the customer. there is a lot of resistance in the industry but that’s inevitably where things are going.
Canyon makes some really nice bikes and they have excellent customer service. You can buy a Canyon Endurace aluminum framed bike with a 105 gruppo for about $1800. It's an excellent deal. At the beginning of June Canyon had a deal on them and were selling them at $1600. Even today I think you can get that same frame with a Tiagra gruppo for $1500.
Personally I prefer to buy a bike from an LBS. You are paying extra but a good LBS shop with good mechanics is worth it. If you are seriously into cycling it is worth cultivating a good relationship with a good shop that has good mechanics. It's just like having a car. I do most of my own work on my bikes but sometimes I don't have enough time and will gladly pay.
I agree with most here. A nice quality bike can be bought for significantly less than $4000. The old model of Cannondale's Synapse and a 105 gruppo can be had on closeout for $1600. The Synapses with Tiagra are closer to $1200. The one with Sora is under $1000. Jamis has a bike that has a Sora gruppo for just about $1200. Sora is fine for most cyclists if you're not racing. You can go on and on with this. In my other post I mentioned Litespeed & Lynskey. Both are titanium bikes and both have had recent sales one some of their bikes for about $2800ish. Those re bikes that are equipped with 105 or SRAM Rival AXS. Threaded bottom brackets also. Really nicely specced bikes for the money and made in the USA in Chattanooga, TN. If you want you can even go pick up your bike at the factory.
If someone is riding about 100-200 miles per week there is absolutely no need to spend $4000 on a bike.
Give me a break. I got a bike in 2003 and started riding with our local Cat 2/3 group with zero experience. I rode with baggie shorts, a t shirt, and running shoes on standard pedals. The group started out with 25 riders and as the rides progressed, it would split into 3-4 smaller groups based on fitness. The front group would hammer and just go go go. I was always in that front group. One day a JellyBelly guy rode with us.as he was traveling through the area. He and I got to chatting and I asked him why the guys were not very friendly to me. He laughed and said they were just pissed that a guy on a $300 bike and running shoes was hanging in their group. #cyclingego
This might not be the flex that you think it is. Just staying with a lead group is not that big of a deal. I did the same thing with Pro 1,2,3 guys when I started.
You might be annoying and pissing people off if you are in the wrong pace line and you can't hold your line. I've seen situations where a potentially strong rider is inexperienced and dangerous once they get to 32-35 mph on flat road. I doubt you got there though in your baggy shorts because you'd be telling a different story.
Buyers should be aware that buying used carbon is a really, really not-great idea. It's VERY hard to discern whether a carbon frame has been damaged, and the usual advice is to NEVER use carbon stems and handlebars of unknown provenance.
I'm a long time cyclist and while I understand the use of carbon fiber on the professional racing circuits, its use among amateurs is bullish*t. It is not trustworthy, especially after changing hand, over the long term.
So the posters suggesting buying used, yeah sure as long as the buyer is buying steel or titanium, maybe even aluminum. I would never in a million years buy a carbon bike, carbon wheels or stems/bars from a random seller. Never ever.
If you do buy a used carbon bike, immediately replace stem/bars and take it to a shop that has the ability to test the frame for damage and voids. Even then, I wouldn't do it.
I agree about buying a used carbon bike. I would never do it. I do have a Scott Addict bike that is CF but it was well under $3000 and it isn't even my favorite bike. My favorite bikes are made out of steel. Buying a good steel bike now, unfortunately, is a very expensive preposition. Most need to be custom made. There are still some good ones made by All-City, Surly and a few others.
Riding a used Carbon bike would give me the willies, especially when going downhill at about 50 mph. I just wouldn't trust it. CF doesn't fatigue but if you're buying it used, you just don't now what it has been through, if it has been wrecked, clamped, dropped, or whatever. I'm even a little leery of bused aluminum since aluminum does fatigue. Still, though, it's probably safer than CF.
One thing I would add for anyone looking at buying a used bike. Buy a chain wear indicator if you don't already have one. When you look at the prospective bike, take the tool with you and check to see if the chain needs to be replaced. If it does, chance are pretty good that the bike has not been well-maintained regardless of how clean it looks. The problem with riding a bike with a worn chain is that other components like the rear cluster and the chain rings may also be worn. I probably would not buy a bike with a worn chain unless I only wanted it for the frame.
The best used bike I ever bought was someone selling a Schwinn Paramount on Facebook Marketplace for $50. The frame was really nice. It was when Waterford still made them. Them bike was dirty and not maintained but it had that Waterford frame made out of nice Reynolds tubing. I gladly paid $50 and would have paid more. I just wanted the frame. If someone know what they're looking for sometimes there are some gems out there.
Here is that chain checker tool. You can get one for $10-15. Some with more features are maybe close to $30 but something like this is adequate. Everyone that rides should own this and get a new chain when you need to.
The only real drawback is that serviceability is slightly worse (insignificant penalties in cost, weight and aero).
"Slightly" worse?
Hydro discs are basically not user serviceable for the overwhelming majority of people, and shop service can be VERY expensive. I get that a lot of people don't ever do any of their own service, so it's not as big of a deal, but in the early 2000s, it was really pretty easy to do quite literally everything you'd ever need to do to maintain your bike.
Personally, I'd never consider discs because I don't use carbon wheels (or carbon anything), and I can't imagine how many things would have to go wrong in my life for me to be descending a mountain pass in a rainstorm on two wheels. Obviously your mileage may vary, but as a runner first, cycling is something I do when the weather is pleasant.
Serious question for cyclists. Do you need disc brakes if 1) you don't ride in the rain and 2) you don't race downhill?
I think the OP could have saved a couple of grand by buying a used bike and then upgrading the wheelset and tweaking the fit with a different stem/handlebars/etc to optimize his riding position.
I consider the improved braking from disc brakes worth the improved safety. (Interestingly, for a serious hill climb attempt, some people will run only a single rim brake.)
Disc brakes are safer and have better modulation. They're a tad heavier than rim brakes. An experienced cyclist that is not riding a lot of downhill and in wet conditions often is usually fine with rim brakes. One of the biggest benefits of disc brakes is that they allow the use of bigger tires. Most rim brakes only allow up to a 28. With you can go as wide as you want as long as the fork and seat stay can accommodate it. Wider tires are more comfortable and can be ridden at lower pressures.
I have a flat paved trail near where I live and when I ride it I always do so with an old Gios track bike that I have that has a 49 chain ring and a single 17 cog. I put rim breaks on it. There's no need for more than one gear and no need for disc brakes.
Regarding disc brakes - no, they aren't necessary, and I definitely wouldn't think of buying a new bike for disc brakes. I never raced a road bike with discs and when I stopped racing they were just starting to become more standard.
That said Ive now used them a lot, and today I wouldn't buy a new bike (other than a cruiser) that DIDNT have discs. (i) the cost increase is very minor (for lower end groupsets I think its $200-300), (ii) they brake so much better in all conditions, (iii) with everything going that direction, the compatibility with wheelsets is much better and (iv) the resale value is going to be much better for a bike with discs (if you care). The only real drawback is that serviceability is slightly worse (insignificant penalties in cost, weight and aero).
Some of the most terrifying moments I've ever had on a bike were descending in the rain, in a pack, while racing on carbon wheels with rim brakes. I never want to be there again and it would have been a relatively stress free situation with discs.
Worth noting that these comments are specific to hydraulic discs. Cable actuated discs are pretty niche and probably not worth it other than for maybe a touring bike where serviceability is a major factor. Make sure you check because some brands are spec'cing cable discs or jerry-rigging cable > hydro adapters.
better breaking in all conditions? I dont believe that. Also service is much worse. quickly changing a wheel is more complicated as well. prob takes at least double the time. That said if you want to use carbon wheels you kinda have to use them. In a mountain race I would actually use rim breaks because you will be fine with a very low profile alu wheel.
I just bought a road bike. It was $4000. The bike shop told me that's the least I can spend if I want any sort of quality. I showed up at a local group ride this morning and the next cheapest bike was twice as much as mine. How does anyone afford to cycle?
You got a deal. It cost me $12500 to get in!!!!!!!!!!
a full brake bleed is definitely a PIA but it doesn’t need to be done very often. day to day service is super easy (if it’s even needed at all). Given the infrequent need to bleed this wouldn’t sway my decision here.
If you switch wheels often it’s a LOT easier with discs versus resetting brakes for wheel width and changing brake pads for carbon and aluminum tracks (but this isn’t an issue for most recreational riders). I’m not sure why someone else said it’s harder to switch wheels with discs.
And yes, braking with discs is better in all conditions (but night and day better in the wet).
And it'll take you years to get there anyhow, if you just bought your first bike. Meanwhile try not to crash.
Also screw group rides. Only commuters are real cyclists. All else is hobby, even racing.
Give me a break. I got a bike in 2003 and started riding with our local Cat 2/3 group with zero experience. I rode with baggie shorts, a t shirt, and running shoes on standard pedals.
Yes, and you can run a 25m 5k at your local runner's club too. By "there" I meant a bit closer to the top than that.
The average group being nowhere near the top only shows how silly group riding is. That a group can go faster than solo doesn't mean you're in great shape, and it has no practical purpose outside recreation.
2k bikes are decent. Then you pay a lot more for a little bit better
Exactly, there is a threshold cost that gets you in the game and after that rapidly diminishing returns kick in. Spending hundreds of dollars to save a few grams is just buying toys for your bike. Disk brakes are great though.
I never understood these bike prices. A couple of weeks ago went into a local bike shop and there wasn't even a bike under 3000 euros. How in the hell can a frame, wheels and some cables cost that much. You can buy a second hand motorcycle with that kind of money. Lots will say inflation but that still doesn't justify the price in my opinion. Some bikes cost almost double from others just because the cables are in the frame and it weighs 2kgs less.
Well, so it depends on what you’re doing with said bike. If you’re climbing a lot, 2 kg is an enormous amount of weight to shave off. UCI has a 6.8kg limit, so the price differential will likely strongly depend on what the starting weight it. It’s not hard for me to imagine a 5 kg build from a LBS though, so make of that what you will.
Well yes in the UCI, but we're talking about amateurs here. Most will have more than 2kg of excess fat and would better go on a diet to shave of weight than to spend it on a bike.
I never understood these bike prices. A couple of weeks ago went into a local bike shop and there wasn't even a bike under 3000 euros. How in the hell can a frame, wheels and some cables cost that much. You can buy a second hand motorcycle with that kind of money. Lots will say inflation but that still doesn't justify the price in my opinion. Some bikes cost almost double from others just because the cables are in the frame and it weighs 2kgs less.
Those are high value features, especially the 2kgs.
2k bikes are decent. Then you pay a lot more for a little bit better
So, I was going to ask that question. What does the graph look like for diminishing returns/bang for buck? Shimano 105, Ultegra, Dura ace? Full carbon vs alum? Where do you start just dropping $ for minimal upgrades for average road biker? (I bought my kid an 800$ Giant MB, I got to tell you, that thing is better anything 20 years ago).
1500$ ?2k?
Shimano 105 is all right. Ultrega is perfect. Best bang for your buck I would say. Some might say it's already overkill. Dura ace is definitely unecessary. Sometimes less durable components to win 50grams. Electronic shifting is very expensive and mostly confort. Not worth it if you are counting your money.
Carbon frame and fork make a big diff for weight and rigidity. That's my minimum. Also because you cannot upgrade it later. You start from there, then you can upgrade anything else you want and have a awesome bike later. The 5k-10k bikes start with better quality carbon frame and better aerodynamics but that's marginal for twice the price. Not worth it unless you have unlimited money.
A 2k, you will get the worst aluminium wheels available. Nowadays they are all painted in black so that they look like carbon. They are quite heavy but very durable. Good for training, all right for riding for fun. If you start racing at a decent level, you will need to upgrade those. It's like training shoes vs racing spikes. A good runner in trainers will crush a bad runner in dragonflys. But at similiar level, it makes the difference. Same for cycling. But there is a level threshold to make benefit out if (you could say the same for spikes) and it is very expensive. No upgrade is really necessary if you are not racing. But upgrades are as much for look and confort as for performance.
Honestly, buying a brand new bike is only good if you don't know what to do with your money. You can find awesome 2nd hand bike for 40% of the price that are just as good as the brand new ones. The main thing is to make sure it fits you well (size).
The biggest "upgrade" could also be the cheapest one : if you don't have the right gear combination for your level/usage from the start changing it could make the biggest dif. For example, if you have max 28 teeth at the back and want to do a tough climb you have to be very fit. It would be a lot easier with 32 teeth or even more if you have to deal with 12%+ slopes.
The biggest "upgrade" could also be the cheapest one : if you don't have the right gear combination for your level/usage from the start changing it could make the biggest dif. For example, if you have max 28 teeth at the back and want to do a tough climb you have to be very fit. It would be a lot easier with 32 teeth or even more if you have to deal with 12%+ slopes.
I ended up on a loose gravel road a few days ago that had a 200-300m section of sustained 18%; it was pretty hard work to make it up with my 30tooth chainring and 36tooth largest sprocket.