What makes Kelvin kiptum so good?

That is still an anti-doping rule violation, and only half the truth, because that lying cheat was also banned for tampering.

If you argue that Kiptum (btw banned for doping while holding the WR in the half marathon*) doesn't count because of the allegedly short course, then it's "only" 30% of the Kenyan top ten. Not exactly reassuring.

* Kamworor's WR was ratified a week later.

Oh hello -- didn't see this thread until my handle popped up. Thanks for the invite.

It's refreshing to see intelligent posts like "Thoughtsleader" and "Apples to Apples" providing real performance data. I guess "Apples to Apples" was a counter to your cherry-picking.

This will be my first and last post about doping, since it has all been said before, and this thread is about "What makes Kelvin Kiptum so good?"

One of the reasons it is stupid to talk about doping producing fast marathon times is because doping has always existed outside of the high altitude countries in East Africa.

If doping could shave minutes off the marathon time, in an era of supershoes also shaving off minutes, shouldn't we also expect non-East Africans to run faster? Forget 2:01s, 2:02s, 2:03s, and 2:04s -- how about within 4 minutes of Kipchoge's 2:01:09?

If we look at the top-176 all time fastest marathons, we can find Ryan Hall sits at #150, with a wind-aided downhill Boston performance of 2:04:58. Above him in the list, 146 of the performances are from East Africans, one is from a Moroccan (2:04:43), one is from
a Brazilian (2:04:51), and one is from a Japanese (2:04:56). If we go down the list to 2:05:09, we have 26 more East African performances.

What's even more striking is that there are good reasons to think Ryan Hall is clean (grew up at altitude, refused to take testosterone when he was diagnosed as low), that Kengo Suzuki is clean (suspicion of Japan is 0%), and that Daniel do Nascimento is clean (the guy pushes himself so hard, he collapsed in the middle of a race) -- the remaining non-African dopers are slower.

So within 4 minutes, we might have as few as just one non-East African doper suspect, the Moroccan-Bahraini El Hassan El Abbassi, because we are mostly all prejudiced against Moroccans who switch to Bahrain.

But then where are all the other doping Moroccans and Moroccan-Bahrainis? Where are all the Russian, Indian, Chinese, American, Spanish, French, Italian, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, marathon dopers?

They are all back in the pack. Most all non-African dopers cannot even run sub-2:05 in the marathon, with the full benefit of doping and super-shoes.

The best answer to what makes Kiptum so good is that first and foremost, he is East African.

"What makes Kelvin Kiptum so good?"

I'll echo the arguments of others who say he skipped the track and went straight to the roads in his 20s.

The marathon used to be something a few runners only did at the end of their careers, after losing their speed. Typically runners were like Lopes, Tergat, and Geb, all in the mid to late 30s, rather than runners like a 25-year old Ryan Hall in London. Geb showed us what aging runners were capable of at the end of their career, but what could he have run 15 years earlier, in his prime? (Although Bekele and Kipchoge still showed us what end of career runners are capable of when healthy and wearing super-shoes).

So in a nutshell, these are all potentially important factors:

- A lifetime of growing up at altitude

- Weighing 90-110 pounds as a healthy mature adult

- Competing in his 20s in his prime

- Few distractions

- Healthy eating

- Mental strength

- Super shoes

- Finding the right balance of training and recovery

- Talent

- Opportunity

a lot more interest and money in road racing specifically the marathon than before, "super shoes" make a small difference in the race itself but might also be a factor in enabling athletes to train more/fresher than before?

To repeat myself - you claim the top runners get tested more often, then list one year's half-marathon best times and can't see that does not compare to an all time top 10 of marathon times.

I'm ok with logic, I studied it and passed with flying colors at one of the best universities in the world.

The 2019 list of half-marathon times would have Abraham Kiptum at the top or second, if he hadn't been nabbed early.

Has more value and i m more impressed by the 2:10 by Sir Mo Farah clean at 40 years old , , than that 2:01 by Kiptum at 23 at his second marathon and his first one was still 2:01 . I m sorry but I dont believe in sci -fi. Kiptum why dont you try to win 4 Olympic gold then 6 world gold medal on track. Instead of doing some ET performance hardly believable by any person with common sense. Hey and this is for everybody. Before you go to criticize Mo Farah career, go and try to win all those 10 gold medals and 2 silver at olympic games and World and you will see how difficult it is

IMO- right now there is more evidence to suggest sir Mo Farah, SALAZAR trained athlete has doped than young humble Kelvin from Kenya. you sound British.

Kelvin Kiptum revealed the secret of his success: triple threshold training.

Did you have a stroke while writing this? Because I had a stroke while reading it

You might have to explain yourself better. You seem to think that the phrase "top athletes" only refers to 10 Kenyan athletes? There are presently 55 Kenyan road runners (actual number can be higher because of guys listed as 10K who do half marathons) in the AIU Registered Testing Pool. That is what I'm referring to. I've listed two years (2019 and 2020) of the top runners e.g. the guys who are the fastest in the half marathon. In their era, they are the guys tested most (as they will fit into this top 55 picture).

Addendum: Many of the athletes busted in Kenya are athletes not good enough to make the official AIU RTP. They get busted at in-competition testing or on ADAK tests. The idea that only the best, most prominent athletes dope OR that lower level athletes doping proves that the athletes at the top are all doping is built on some logic that isn't ironclad. One idea being to make a living you must dope (what does this say about many athletes most people don't believe to be doping --> Jakob?). Another being all the athletes who dope are studs (what is far-fetched about a 61-62,2:08-2:10 athlete doping to get on even terms with a more talented athlete?).

No. I'm trying to point out how your 4 out of 10 stat does not reflect the reality that testing has picked up and for the six or seven dozen (70-80) most prominent Kenyan road runners from 2019-present we have about 3 or 4 busts. And that is with AIU testing and targeting.

It is fine to be skeptical of Kiptum it was a crazy performance. To act like 40% of the top 60 Kenyan road racers get busted is just made up.

I know what you are citing and Kenyans in the likely doping category from that report were right in line (or maybe right below) that 18% number. Thus 1 and 3 feel pretty irrelevant to your argument. I checked and Kenya was at .14.

If you think the number is 40% you are saying the tests are very poor at catching cheats. Again that is fine to say, but it just means you should attach extra scrutiny to every athlete and not just Kenyan athletes.

Yup he only ever likes to place blame on potential dopers and never actually have a conversation just about running. Doping obsessed.

The conversation isn't just about running with dopers. As he is.

What makes Kiptum so good is the same thing that made immensely talented athletes like Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Lance Armstrong, Rashid Ramzi and Asbel Kiprop so good. As the relentless number of busts show, being Kenyan obviously helps.