The distance events have looked more or less the same for 20+ years. Barriers like 3:30 and 12:50 still mean something and are only broken by the top few.
Look at the 3k and 10k if you want, it’s the same story. If the shoes were worth what many here claim, all the old records would have been obliterated and times that were previously elite would be commonplace. It’s not like 12:48 is the new 13:00. People are losing their minds over soft indoor records going down and letting it cloud their judgement.
I agree with this. Silas Kiplagat ran 3:27 without super shoes 9 years ago, and in that Monaco race and the year after there were a like half a dozen guys under or right at 3:30 (gonna exclude Kiprop from this since he's a doper). We saw some 3:29-3:30 races in 2022 but it's hard to argue that super spikes have helped significantly there. Guys had been doing that for years prior. Maybe it's allowing for more depth, but I wouldn't say it's making the fastest times faster - at least outdoor. Athletes at indoor meets are crazy fit and don't have a long full year of competing in their legs. Obviously a crazy amount of guys broke 4 at BU this year, and there's A LOT more depth than we've seen before, but the fastest times run there this year haven't necessarily been faster, or at least significantly faster than other recent years. Rupp still ran 3:50 there 10 years ago. Obviously we saw some insane mile and 3k times this year but I wouldn't say the super spikes have nearly the same effect as super shoes on the road.
And as we know they haven't done much for the 800 either on that note haha
Comments about standards such as 12:50 and 3:30 are true. I think the jumps seen by shoe tech are happening mostly to the masses that benefit the most from it.
You want to see 800 performance drops, start getting the 44/45 second 400 meter guys that aren't going to win anything to move up.
In 1979 Seb Coe ran a 46.87(pb) 400m, a month later he ran 1:42.3, world record, 2 years later he ran 1:41:73, another world record. To this day only 2 runners have run faster, in more than 40 years!
There are plenty of 800 runners who can run sub 47, they just don't do the training sufficient to run 50.8 back to back.
Not at just the USA level but globally. Without the likes of Rudisha, Brazier, Amos, the event is just awful. Please give me some reasons to get excited for the 800.
With no clear favorites it's a totally open event. That alone should be very inspiring to every young gun on their way up. You could have a US medal sweep come WC in Budapest later this year - by three new men that has never even made US finals before if they only improve like two seconds from the previous year - it's within reach.
Someone will have to check the math, but I'm pretty confident that the 800 (men's) has improved the least over the last 40+ years since Coe ran 1:41.73. To keep up with the other events 100 to 10000m, it probably needs to be in the 1:39.0 range!
What has been poor over the last number of years has been the pace making. Can't remember the last time I saw a rabbit get to 600m....or a rabbit hitting the pace evenly (24.5/50.0/1:16.0). Also makes it hard when they cram the fields with 10-12 athletes and everyone has to go out too hard to get in a good position at 200.
As a former 800 runner, it is disappointing to see this be, relatively, the weakest track even on both the US and World stage. I don’t buy the shoes thing, but I really do think there was a breakthrough in 1,500/3,000/5,000 training with everybody now copying the Ingebrigtsen (Bakken) double threshold with lactate testing to ensure that lactate levels stay low.
The thing about the 800 is that you want those high lactate levels. It f-ing hurts. If you don’t venture to those levels in training, how are you going to dig deep in races? The 800 also requires very fluid speed. Murphy had it when he won bronze, but doesn’t anymore. Brazier was a beautiful runner, but injuries have hurt his form. Rudisha had the prettiest running form of all time. Now, most of the guys look tense like they’re ready to take a crap. Who is teaching these guys form?
Korir is the best right now because he has the best fluid speed. There is a flotrack Workout Wednesday with him from when he was at UTEP. That’s the kind of workout you need to do.
See, this is just it, we are celebrating people running 145 on the elite circuit as the new king? If Brazier was a shadow of his former self he would be winning fast 800s by 2 second this last 1.5 yrs. Its just slow right now. Wightmen i believe is the only guy since 2021 to run a top 100 time!! Brazier, Soloman, Symmonds, Gray (even Murphy)...who is going to run 1:42 from the US anytime soon like those guys? Im waiting. 145 is the new 142?
What a disrespectful, ignorant clown comment. First, most of those guys mentioned never ran faster than Tibo indoors, second Brazier never ran faster than .6 seconds indoors vs Tibo, third, no one, ever, has ran faster than Tibo this early...jan 22. Ever!!!
Fourth, Tibo has clearly jumped to a new level. If he doesn't run 1:43s multiple times this year outdoors I would be shocked. And would not be surprised if he dips into 1:42. Please
Lets wait to get beyond crystal ball predictions before judging my comments. You may end up right. Im just saying... this is where we are in the last yr...annointing kings for 145.
Wow, that 1:43.5 by Wightman was impressive. So much for no fast times in 2022. Still, I guess 1500 guys shouldnt be dominating the 800.
I think the bar for world wide fast times isn't 1:43.5. We've seen a 1:40.9, and 'many' 1:41/1:42 times in the last decade. A 1:43.5 isn't on that same level. Right now anyone sub 1:45 is a medal contender and it has required a lot more than that in the past decade.
True for the last decade, but not last 18 months. It does appear down right now. 144 wins a boat load of meets.
I get that people only see what happens on the track but Murphy opened up on a couple of platforms (see letsrun pod) about how hard his wife's pregnancy was last year on them and this season having their first baby 3 month premature and being at the NICU for months.
It feels like he's had some pretty awful luck lately too getting food poisoning ahead of USA's last year and getting sick from millrose right before US indoors this year. If you look back, you'll see that he's never had a great indoor 800m series and pair that with being a new dad and probably getting awful sleep, you gotta give the guy some grace and just hope things can keep clicking for him this year to get back on top. He's not even old, people just forget he won his bronze as a junior in college.
Someone will have to check the math, but I'm pretty confident that the 800 (men's) has improved the least over the last 40+ years since Coe ran 1:41.73. To keep up with the other events 100 to 10000m, it probably needs to be in the 1:39.0 range!
What has been poor over the last number of years has been the pace making. Can't remember the last time I saw a rabbit get to 600m....or a rabbit hitting the pace evenly (24.5/50.0/1:16.0). Also makes it hard when they cram the fields with 10-12 athletes and everyone has to go out too hard to get in a good position at 200.
Yes, the fields are definitely too big. That's certainly not helping. There are also few athletes willing to go out in sub-51 or sub-50.5 on the rabbit. In 2018, Korir did this, and in 2019 Brazier did (having Wesley Vazquez in front didn't hurt either). Arop's done it before, but has rightfully gotten frustrated when guys key off of him. Now there isn't really a guy beside maybe Burgin, who is constantly hurt, willing to go hard with the pacer every time and roll the dice. I hope they construct the right fields overseas, but I'm not sure who we can really look to right now to take the pace to 1:16 or 1:17. Hoping Wanyonyi, Burgin and Noah Kibet possibly can become the guy.
Think we are seeing the impact (or lack of impact) from shoe tech in the 800. Longer events are getting large boosts in times with records going down seemingly every weekend. The 800 looks basically the same as it did in the 2010s. The insanity of the distance performances are making the 800, which doesn’t get the same shoe bump in racing and training (unless 800 guy is very aerobic based with higher mileage), look lame in comparison.
The distance events have looked more or less the same for 20+ years. Barriers like 3:30 and 12:50 still mean something and are only broken by the top few.
Look at the 3k and 10k if you want, it’s the same story. If the shoes were worth what many here claim, all the old records would have been obliterated and times that were previously elite would be commonplace. It’s not like 12:48 is the new 13:00. People are losing their minds over soft indoor records going down and letting it cloud their judgement.
Very small set of data. Look at top 100 US and World and you’ll see dramatic performance increases in average times. You’re basically only looking at 5 athletes per year.
Are you kidding!? Of course the shoes and tracks are having a huge impact across the board in terms of the sheer number (depth) of fast times. Look at the number of records (not just world, but national and area) that have been set (firstly) on the roads and then on the tracks (particularly indoors) since the 'super carbon plated foam weaved spikes' were introduced in 2019. You only have to look at the unapproachable (for well over a decade) men's 5k and 10k WRs that were both beaten. The reason the men's 1500m to 3000m WRs haven't been beaten yet is more to do with the tighter doping testing in place now, not to mention the free for all EPO buffet of the late 90's, than the lack of improvement in spike technology. A few more years of technical advances in spikes and tracks (which I don't think is given the attention it deserves) and even the untouchable times of EL G and Komen will be beaten.
In terms of tracks, we have seen guys running 3:47 miles indoors in winter and then not getting near to those times/ability at the height of the summer. Elliott Giles ran 1:43.63 last winter and couldn't break 1:44 in the summer. This year we've had a 7:23 3000m, even a 'heavy' Kerr running a 7:33! That puts him in the same league as Aouita, and he just isn't that good! In a previous era (10 years ago), I would put Gourley as a peak 3:32 runner. Yet he's doing that easy indoors on current (new) tracks in new spikes.
There are guys running way under 13 mins in Jan/Feb this year. I mean, (based on what we know from historical data) why on earth are people in such shape in February? A 30 year old that has only once just snuck under 13:00 for 5000m, suddenly running a 12:51 on the trampoline track of Boston in January! It can only be down to a combination of the new shoes and the trampoline tracks that seem to becoming greater in numbers each year.
There needs to be a limit to how much tracks can be 'tuned' for fast times. And before someone claims that there are limits in place, well that clearly hasn't been the case as evidenced by the chief designer of the Mondo track laid in Tokyo for the last Olympics, openly claiming that this track was * % faster than any previous laid tracks. The proof came with the ridiculous times in the respective men's and women's 400m hurdles events. Such a huge percentage improvement in the world record progression in a sprint event clearly highlights that these times are not just down to 'hard work', but are certainly being made posible by other factors; namely new spikes and new tracks that are forever being developed to improve efficiency, energy return, comfort, etc. The alternative is that you really believe that after what 25 years of the men's WR being 46.78 (with no one getting close), we suddenly have a jump in human evolution that propels it to sub 46!? A 0.84 secs improvement in fact, which is about 6.5m in distance! Put another way, is Warholm really over a second better in ability than Moses? I don't think so.
There has already been much scientific research done on the benefit of these shoes, and there is the admission submitted by the track designers themselves that (modern) tracks are getting faster. To suggest that the shoes offer no benefit in the face of such damning and contrary evidence is just ludicrous.
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Seriously dude, get a grip. Why are you raving about track surfaces and road shoes in response to a post about super spikes? You can cherry pick all day long, but the stats don’t lie. Distance standards have held up remarkably well over the decades. Your hero Cram would still be one of the top milers in the world today, almost 40 years later. One guy breaking Bekele’s records doesn’t prove the shoes are worth whatever ridiculous number of seconds per mile is in vogue these days.
If all it took were a new pair of spikes and a juiced up track, the sport would be unrecognizable. We should have dozens of men under 3:30 every year and El G’s 3:26 would be an afterthought, crushed by multiple guys at this point. Bekele’s 12:37 and Cheptegei’s 12:35? They’d be forgotten and surpassed by those who ran 12:40s before the dragonfly.
Athletes are peaking for indoors and chasing times now more than ever. We’ve seen that indoors is as fast as outdoors so what’s the big deal? Josh Kerr running 7:33 puts him on Aouita’s level? Not even close dude. And I’m sorry, but who are you to say Warholm isn’t actually that much better than Moses? He’s run .73 faster over the flat 400 and that was in 2017. But who cares! Why are you whining that the 400h record was broken by someone you don’t think is good enough in a discussion about the effects of super spikes on distance performance?
It’s hard to respond to everything in your absurd rant of a post because it jumps all over the place. I’ll touch on the Kincaid thing briefly just because it shows how dumb all of this is. Woody ran 12:58 IN SUPER SHOES, so the improvement to 12:51 has nothing to do with what was on his feet. Of course now you’ll just blame it on the track, but keep in mind that Fisher ran 12:53 at BU and then 12:46 outdoors. That Brussels track must be a real trampoline!
Go ahead and keep crying about Neil Gourley and Elliot Giles, claiming drug tests only work for the 15 and 3k, etc. Everyone knows that the sport died in the 90s for you and you’ve never been able to move on. Super tracks and super spikes are just the latest thing for you to moan about so you can keep telling yourself that three guys from the same country who ran 40 years ago were the best to ever do it and always will be.
You are totally delusional. The stats don't lie. The depth of fast times in middle and distance races have 'exploded' since the introduction of the 'super spikes' in 2019. Remember this front page of LetsRun from a year ago?
Unless you have been living under a rock, you will also know that times don’t mean what they used to because now virtually everyone is running in a super spike. As mentioned above, Fisher was far from the only person to set a record last weekend. Elite track times are being readjusted just like the marathon times were a few years ago. At BU last weekend, guys in the 4th heat of the mile were breaking 4:00 and in the 4th heat of the 5000 were running an NCAA DII record of 13:33.68. Consider these stats. 87 – number of collegians who have broken 1:50 in the 800 this year at the NCAA D1 level (counting flat track/altitude conversions), a record. 75 – number of collegians who have broken 4:00 in the mile this year at the NCAA D1 level (counting flat track/altitude conversions), a record. 120 – number of collegians who have broken 8:00 in the 3000 this year at the NCAA D1 level (counting flat track/altitude conversions), a record. 89 – number of collegians who have broken 14:00 in the 5000 this year at the NCAA D1 level (counting flat track/altitude conversions), a record. To put those numbers in perspective, we created a table to show you how many people broke those barriers in 2018-2019, the last indoor season before super spikes came out. The table also shows you the corresponding time for those rankings (e.g. the 87th-fastest 800 runner) in 2018-19.
Then look at the tables on the link that underlines just how much the sheer depth in fast times has moved on.
Btw, the reference to the 400mH was totally relevant to the point I was making, as it demonstrates that tracks have also become faster, thus further skewing the frequency of fast times. FYI Moses hardly ever ran a 400m open, but he did run a 44.1 relay leg, and I'm pretty sure that Warholm (who I think is incredible and probably the Goat now in the event, he's just not 1.1 secs better than Moses in ability) hasn't posted a time any faster than that in a 400 relay?
Aouita was running around the 7:32 mark for several years when the undisputed No. 1 over 5k, and only ran 7:29 late in his career. If Kerr is in shape to run a 7:33 in Feb, then he sure as hell should be in form to run 3 secs faster come the height of the summer. So again, a totally valid and relevant reference. But then I guess some people are just too obtuse to understand the subtleties of a cohesive argument!
There is a vacuum in talent in the 800m right now, but one anomaly doesn't disprove the rule that across the rest of the middle and distance events, times (in terms of depth) have definitely moved on. I also explained why El G's 3:26 hasn't been consigned to history, but I see again that you couldn't grasp a simple explanation that over compensates for the super spikes.
Also I’m not sure what you mean by your 3,000m point. Aouita was plenty good in 1989 and he didn’t run the 3,000 in ‘87-‘88. Kerr has shown a higher ceiling at the 1500, but Aouita was superior 3k and up. Your British guys ran a lot of their 1500 PBs not in their physical prime which is unusual and maybe indicates their time trial setups/tracks improved as their careers went on. Right now all of those aspects are optimized and yes the spikes are great too.
Agreed. He ran 1:44.98 at Millrose and looked like he had plenty in the tank. I'll note Wycliffe Kinyamal Kisasy (made World Final and won Comm Games 800m last year), opened up in Nairobi Sunday and ran a pretty even 1:46.5 winning comfortably. So, he's in solid shape as well. He's in the Arop tier I'd say.
If I'm not mistaken then it's Kinyamal who doubled back at that meet to anchor his 4x4 team with quite the leg .
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Also I’m not sure what you mean by your 3,000m point. Aouita was plenty good in 1989 and he didn’t run the 3,000 in ‘87-‘88. Kerr has shown a higher ceiling at the 1500, but Aouita was superior 3k and up. Your British guys ran a lot of their 1500 PBs not in their physical prime which is unusual and maybe indicates their time trial setups/tracks improved as their careers went on. Right now all of those aspects are optimized and yes the spikes are great too.
What! Kerr hasn't broken 1:45 for 800m and Aouita ran 1:43.86 and won an Olympic bronze. He has certainly shown to be faster than Kerr, and by your own admission, Aouita had greater endurance ('Aouita was superior 3k and up'), so how can Kerr have had a 'greater ceiling' (by which I presume you mean 'greater ability') over 1500m than an athlete who was faster and had greater endurance?
