Explain the Israeli Palestine conflict please

valjean wrote:

The eastern Mediterranean area has been fought over by various ethic/religious groups for millennia. It was controlled in antiquity by Jewish groups who faced Greek, Roman, Mongol, European, and Muslim invaders (not necessarily in that order). Eventually the Jews were forced out of control. After WWII, the Allies developed a plan to replace the various local governments with a single Jewish one as a) reward for help from Jewish scientists like Weizmann, Szilard, et al in WWI and WWII, b) a nod to the Jews after the Holocaust and to the growing Zionist movement including famous members the Rothschilds, and most importantly c) a way to create a strong ally in an area with significant geopolitical value and constant conflict. This plan unfortunately involved displacing a lot of native people. The local Jews were happy about this plan, but everyone else was pretty mad. So now they've been fighting about it for the past several decades.

huh. wrote:

coach wrote:

Israel is fundamental to Judaism and for 2000 years Jews have been praying for a return to the land of Israel. The idea that a State of Israel was cavalierly plopped in the middle of Arab countries is disingenuous.

Not really. Boundaries of kingdoms and countries have always been gradually evolving as wars are won and lost. Plopping a country in the midst of clearly antagonistic peoples is pretty unusual, especially in the modern era, and it was possible because the west orchestrated it, and that plopping was the start of the conflict. I didn’t use the word “cavalier”. It is what it is.

I don’t have a horse in this race, so I don’t have a reason to be anti-Semitic or pro-Arab. You could say the Arabs started the wars by attacking Israel right after its creation, but that’s a bit like blaming Russia entirely for the Ukraine war entirely ignoring NATO’s existential causal role in that conflict.

coach wrote:

huh. wrote:

Not really. Boundaries of kingdoms and countries have always been gradually evolving as wars are won and lost. Plopping a country in the midst of clearly antagonistic peoples is pretty unusual, especially in the modern era, and it was possible because the west orchestrated it, and that plopping was the start of the conflict. I didn’t use the word “cavalier”. It is what it is.

I don’t have a horse in this race, so I don’t have a reason to be anti-Semitic or pro-Arab. You could say the Arabs started the wars by attacking Israel right after its creation, but that’s a bit like blaming Russia entirely for the Ukraine war entirely ignoring NATO’s existential causal role in that conflict.

Creating a Jewish state in the middle of Africa as what was discussed was ridiculous. Reestablishing an ancient homeland for a people hoping for its return is not. There have always been Jews in the biblical Israel/Palestine/Transjordan. If the numbers were low it is because they were expelled by the Christians or Muslims. Any practicing Jew for the last 2000 years has prayed for the return to Jerusalem. That's why I stated the idea that they were plopped in the middle of Arab land was disingenuous. Israel has always been the homeland for Jews exiled or not.

Whatever the reason, Israel exists. But Palestine could have existed side by side as a thriving country. The other Arab countries lied to the Oalestinians 75 years ago and Arafat walked away from the table after he was promised the land he asked for 30 years ago. Historically the Arabs chose war and now Israel has moved just as far away from the center.

huh. wrote:

coach wrote:

Creating a Jewish state in the middle of Africa as what was discussed was ridiculous. Reestablishing an ancient homeland for a people hoping for its return is not. There have always been Jews in the biblical Israel/Palestine/Transjordan. If the numbers were low it is because they were expelled by the Christians or Muslims. Any practicing Jew for the last 2000 years has prayed for the return to Jerusalem. That's why I stated the idea that they were plopped in the middle of Arab land was disingenuous. Israel has always been the homeland for Jews exiled or not.

Whatever the reason, Israel exists. But Palestine could have existed side by side as a thriving country. The other Arab countries lied to the Oalestinians 75 years ago and Arafat walked away from the table after he was promised the land he asked for 30 years ago. Historically the Arabs chose war and now Israel has moved just as far away from the center.

Tomayto tomahto. You are objecting to the use of the word plopping because of a 2000-year old historical prayerful desire. I don’t see it that way because the historical attrition was organic and gradual, not unusual nor abruptly and externally imposed. Calling the plopping characterization disingenuous is like saying that the idea that america belongs to today’s Americans is disingenuous. If say Europe and everyone else hypothetically ganged up and decided that the indigenous people deserved a nation of their own because of their historical ownership of these lands and plopped a country the size of Mexico across Mexico and US, those two countries are unlikely to bear it quietly, especially if there was a history of religious conflict.

coach wrote:

huh. wrote:

Tomayto tomahto. You are objecting to the use of the word plopping because of a 2000-year old historical prayerful desire. I don’t see it that way because the historical attrition was organic and gradual, not unusual nor abruptly and externally imposed. Calling the plopping characterization disingenuous is like saying that the idea that america belongs to today’s Americans is disingenuous. If say Europe and everyone else hypothetically ganged up and decided that the indigenous people deserved a nation of their own because of their historical ownership of these lands and plopped a country the size of Mexico across Mexico and US, those two countries are unlikely to bear it quietly, especially if there was a history of religious conflict.

If the US empire collapsed and the Sioux wanted to establish hegemony in the Dakotas I'd believe they have a right. I believe in Israel's right to exist along side a Palestinian state. As for historical attrition being organic not externally imposed, really?