good thread. I don't love the idea of poaching a kid who is already doing very well, but I believe OP is well intentioned and has come here humbly asking for advice.
You can learn a lot from books and thread advice, but neither can 100% replace experience. Unfortunately, some coaches will never work with enough REAL talent to get statistically relevant information about how a variety of athletes will respond to a variety of different training stimuli.
He did not get hurt. I have not updated out of laziness and also he has gotten fast enough to be identified which I said may make me stop posting. All I will say is that he has broken 4:15 and his season is not over.
Ran 9:30 early season solo, then opened up with a 4:23 win at a big invite closing in 60. Split only about 55 on the 4x4.
Had a few tough weeks of illness and hovered around 4:23-4:25 at a few races. So we decided to not race over spring break and really use it to put in a huge block of workouts to get his confidence and fitness back up. Ripped off some pretty good workouts 10 x 400 at 64 with 75 second rest, 4x1k at 2:49 with 2:30 rest some hill repeats of about a minute, a 6400m track tempo in 20:30, etc.
Then he ran 4:20, 4:17 in 6 days apart, got down to 53 on the 4x4.
Had one last 2.5 week break without races so we went hard on anaerobic stuff
2x500-300 in 75-42 with long recoveries
5x250 @ 33 w/ 5 min rest
3 x 800 @ 2:07 with long recovery
600 TT (1:24), long break, 10 x 20 second hill with 90 recovery
10x200 @ 27.8 w/ 60 recovery
Ran sub 4:15 at his state meet last week and has 1 more post season mile to go where we think 4:10.x or faster is possible. Unfortunately to this point has not been in a good 800 race fresh but has run a negative split 2:02
That's where we are at today. And also I've fudged the details enough that identifying him shouldn't be possible so I wouldn't bother.
Yup and why it makes no sense. Times are listed. There's actually list with top runners, funny even can break it down by grade. Does he run in a nacho libre mask to conceal his identity?
I can give you some very good advice on how to train this athlete mentally. it sounds like your athlete has a more of a lackadaisical personality. this is usually the type that doesn't train and run super fast times type talent. this is one of the most tricky types of talents to develop and majority of coaches will screw it up so its good you came on letsrun to ask for some advice.
These types of personalities are not self-motivated types they are motivated by whatever excites them. watch an interview of austin tamagno (super talented 4:05 sophmore) on the far left of the lackadaisical spectrum. he was only training 35 miles a week when he ran 4:05. then on the far right of the spectrum is the self-motivated type, watch an interview of hunter jones. my guess is your athlete is more like Austin Tamagno (which is not a bad thing) it is just very tricky to develop this type of personality as talent.
Your focus should be less on workouts and training and more on making running exciting for them. This personality is far far far more at risk of burning out mentally (as running doesn't excite them anymore) and this is what you should be most concerned about. From my experience, it is far less likely for this type of talent to be successful past high school. This is because they burn out mentally not physically. Personally if I had this type of talent, I would utilize it for high school as there is no promise they will stay focused with college running.
So the big question. How do you not burn out this type of lackadaisical type of talent?
1) set expectations low as hell.
There is no surer way of making running less exciting for this type of personality than for them to find out that they are no where near as talented as they thought you were.
After finding out their less talented, their training starts to become a chore for them and the passion fades away and you just lost a huge talent. High unrealistic expectations will lead to lead to huge disappointment. On a positive note -
However, there is nothing more exciting than for them to find out they are more talented than they thought they were.
best advice I can give you is to manage expectations properly in order to make racing exciting for them. if they can be satisfied and excited with the bare minimum successes you have done your job more successful than 99% of coaches could have and have also set them up for success later on in their high school career.
However, if they are actually a 1 / 10,000,000 talent (Grant Fischer, Alan Webb, Jim Ryun, German Fernandez, Lukas Verzbicas ) it shouldn't matter too much in keeping expecations in check. but 99.99% chance from what I read they are not this type of talent. (However you are welcome to prove me wrong)
I know this sound harsh but it will really hurt your athlete mentally when a true talent or close to a true talent is far faster than him. He is still incredibly talented, and you should try to utilize it the best you can. A sub 4 mile goal as a sophmore which was Austin Tamagno's goal is probably the reason why he burned out mentally. Austin Tamagno is incredibly incredibly incredibly talented he just wasn't able to utilize it because he burned out mentally. He could of probably ran 3:55 mile or lower in college but it hurt him mentally that he wasn't able to keep up with Drew Hunter. I heard Austin only ran 35 miles a week when he ran 4:06 as a sophmore.
If you want to know what true potential talent happening right now watch Evan Noonan a sophmore. There is a video on milesplit of the 1600m CIF finals then 3200m CIF finals this week. He doesn't run in a straight line, his form is sloppy, he is undeveloped and way too young looking for his age (so there is probably a lot more physical maturation coming for his age), and most importantly he is part of a smart program. But he shows up on a windy day splits a 56 second last lap to run 4:10 and absolutely wrecks all the sub 4:10 milers and low 8:50 2 milers (it's not even close). Then a few hours later he shows up to 3200 for a double and wrecks an 8:53 guy and a 8:57 guy by splitting a 57 last lap to run 8:59. Another true talent watch daniel simmons only a junior run 8:34 leading the last 3 laps are arcadia trying to keep 3 sub 4 guys at bay.
My point is there is a lot of huge talents out and it can be discouraging and the easier your athlete is satisfied with the bare minimum the more he can improve. Most of the huge talents are not seen until junior and senior year. These types of athletes run faster and are also the most happy when they have accomplishments that they are very proud of and achievements to look forward to in the future. He will be much more focused when he is running times he is satisfied with. This is very important!!!! A coach as emotional support is also very helpful. However, I don't admire your job as it is not easy to keep a sub 4:15 sophomore expectations in check.
Some other things that might also help:
- a strong team bonding can help a lot
- running in adventurous settings (national parks)
Just for the sake of comparison, here are the top sophs this year, one of the best groups of sophomores ever. Your guy may join them at some point.
1600 Meters 1. 10 Evan Noonan 4:09.48PR CA Dana Hills Apr 28 South Coast League Finals 2. 17 10 Keegan Smith* 4:11.37PR TN Knoxville Catholic May 11 TSSAA D-II Class AA East Region 3. 10 Owen Powell 4:12.30PR WA Mercer Island Apr 01 Stanford Invitational 4. 10 Jack Bowen* 4:12.30PR TN McCallie May 11 TSSAA D-II Class AA East Region 5. 17 10 Aydon Stefanopoulos 4:12.41PR CA Los Gatos Apr 01 Stanford Invitational
1 Mile
1. 16 10 Vincent Recupero 4:07.41PR WA Bishop Blanchet Apr 28 Nike/Jesuit Twilight Relays 2. 10 Owen Powell 4:07.87PR WA Mercer Island Apr 28 Nike/Jesuit Twilight Relays 3. 17 10 Josiah Tostenson 4:08.05PR OR Crater Apr 28 Nike/Jesuit Twilight Relays 4. 10 Riku Sugie 4:12.06PR KY May 05 Kentucky Dream Mile 5. 10 Landon Pretre 4:14.38PR CA Menlo Apr 22 Oregon Relays presented by AthleticNET
Of course. I’m not gonna be visibly down around him if he “only” run 4:16 this season. He doesn’t owe anyone a time, I am just so excited about him that I felt like I had to post it because his workouts seem to indicate he could get into sophomore superstar territory, but I don’t want to be that guy who tells someone they’re gonna run 4:30 when really they’re in 4:38 shape or something. I coach other athletes in the area as well from 6 minute 1500 gals to a 1:53 senior in college, I’ve had some experience with both failure and success and I know not to react to failure in any negative way.
To peach pit, I will most certainly update this thread. The goal we’ve been focusing on/discussing has simply been the school records of 4:20 & 9:20 - he’s really competitive and he talked about wanting those, so I told him that’s what we’ll aim for. However I think at this point he and I know those are most likely formalities, hence why I started the thread. I’m not sure if it’s better to just keep the conservative goals or shoot for more ambitious ones with this kid because he’s run so well off of just showing up and balling out, so maybe putting higher expectations on him could be detrimental in some way. Or maybe not.
No indoor races on the schedule so far, overall I’m not a huge believer in the necessity of indoor races, or at least a full indoor season. That may be the wrong mentality though, let me know. He seems ok just training so far because he knows he’s making a jump, but maybe one race under distance race to test the speed couldn’t hurt. Had he had skipped XC we were going to do an indoor season because he would then have gone almost a year without racing, but he did run XC this year so the plan has been just to train November-February.
Interesting. I am working with a very talented 13 year old here in my country. His development has taken offin the past 3 months running the following times. 400 54.04 800m 2:02.7 1500m 4:21.9 3k 9:23 and yesterday he ran a new years eve parkrun in 16:23.
He also high jumps 1.67m and long jumps 5.35m
Obviously your athlete is talented but the key is consistency and structured program and also have quality athletes to train with.
There are no school coaches so I will be able to work with this athlete for some time.
You can’t say “with all due respect” and make false claims. I did no such reporting, I don’t even think of that as an option on this site. I don’t know who did that.
Yes, I said the “goal” was 51, that doesn’t mean he didn’t improve moron. His season is not over yet either and I suspect he could run 52 now given the 53 was last month. He certainly wasn’t this fast last year. He’s raced essentially only the mile so far, only 1 800 and 1 3200 both earlier in the season. That wasn’t up to me, his school pretty much only enters him in the mile because they only understand he is good at that. I wanted him to run more 800s.
You people need to think a bit more critically. You can run decent mileage and develop speed at the same time. 45 MPW WILL NOT hurt a kid’s development long term.
You can’t say “with all due respect” and make false claims. I did no such reporting, I don’t even think of that as an option on this site. I don’t know who did that.
Yes, I said the “goal” was 51, that doesn’t mean he didn’t improve moron. His season is not over yet either and I suspect he could run 52 now given the 53 was last month. He certainly wasn’t this fast last year. He’s raced essentially only the mile so far, only 1 800 and 1 3200 both earlier in the season. That wasn’t up to me, his school pretty much only enters him in the mile because they only understand he is good at that. I wanted him to run more 800s.
You people need to think a bit more critically. You can run decent mileage and develop speed at the same time. 45 MPW WILL NOT hurt a kid’s development long term.
Initially I was on your side but now I think you are a lowlife. You posted here asking for advice and input, and when people provide their advice you call them a moron and say that people can't think critically. You clearly aren't here to seek honest training advice, you are here to humble-brag and stroke your own ego.
You said you suspected he could have run a 54 last year...now he's run 53. That's probably WORSE improvement in the 400 than he would have had naturally getting older. 60 minute runs at 6:15 pace (nearly 10 miles in 1 session) for a kid who never broke 15 miles per week the previous year? 30 minute tempo runs? He's getting more miles in 2 days (Sunday and Monday) of your training than he did in a whole week last year.
Most posters recommended more speed and less mileage. You did not implement any of their advice. Your athlete has fallen short of your goals and you need to realize that as the coach THAT FALLS ON YOU.
Note: I've changed some details on his profile so he can't be identified, but I have a feeling most of the country will know his name soon.
History
Freshman year: Kid did not run a step until summer of 2021 - his first XC season he comes out opens up at 18:02 and PR's at 17:16 mid season on 15-20mpw and with no summer base. Takes a month off, joins the indoor track team, goes 5:06-4:50 in 2 indoor races (is still running with an inept high school coach having him do 15mpw doing all sorts of little things wrong). Goes right into outdoor, opens the season at 4:40, drops down to 4:28 in his last race in May on the same training. He also split 2:01.x on a 4x8 at some point and ran 10:00 for 32 on a double. Not too surprising seeing as he had zero aerobic development. Never ran a 400 of any kind unfortunately.
I heard about this kid and reached out to him because, honestly, what private coach wouldn't want to get their hands on such a talent - the school he goes to is notoriously bad at middle distance/distance running development, the school records are 4:20/9:20 from over 15 years ago - and I really wanted to see what he could do on something other than 15mpw with 8x400 every week during base phase. I've been working with him since this June.
I had him take a few weeks off after track then started base building. The second week back, he got into a moderately bad car accident. His injuries were non life-threatening but he was still out for 6 weeks late June to early August on doctor's orders with a concussion, an internal laceration and a fractured ulna (point being he got pretty banged up). I had thrown in the towel at this point on the XC season, I told him that it would be best to start from scratch and start a long build towards outdoor season, maybe hop in a few indoor races to break up the monotony and stay hungry and whatnot. However I realized it was best to just let him race the XC season as he is young and I don't want to keep him from that team experience - after all, he had success last year off of no summer as well.
He opened up the first race at 17:04 and ran 15:55 a month later on the same course (flamed out a little at the end of the season but that wasn't entirely surprising given that he ran less than 100 miles before the XC season started.
And now, I have finally got him doing an uninterrupted, full cycle buildup for the outdoor season, and the results have been absolutely spectacular even this early.
Recent workouts:
30 minute flat-ish tempo @ 5:26 (yes, a tempo, I tell him not to run all out but "comfortably hard")
25 minute extremely hilly tempo @ 5:25 (I personally was running this route @ 5:28 pace a month out from a 4:01 1500)
60 minutes @ 6:15 pace. on paper the workout was "1 hour uptempo" - he says 6-7 perceived effort.
5x1200m w/ 2 minutes recovery on trail at 3:42
7x1k w/ 90 sec recovery on trail at 3:02
14x400m w/ 1 minute recovery on trail @ 69.1 avg
A boat load of hill repeat workouts as well that won't have any meaning to any of you but seems are similar to things a few 3:5x-4:0x 1500m guys I've worked have done.
I know I've got him training like a 5k guy but it is only December, and I know that this kid has an absolutely unlimited aerobic reserve in there waiting to be tapped into. I've got him doing weekly pure speed stuff and speed maintenance strides as well so he'll be alright when we start running faster in February.
Every single workout I throw at this kid he knocks it out of the park and gets faster seemingly every run. I'm not having him blast these workouts to pieces either, he is running within himself and the next day is perfectly fine. In fact, I tell him to reign it in on the easy runs, he always wants to run sub 7 pace but I tell him to back off a little even if it feels easy.
I've built him up nice and slow since November from 20mpw to 40mpw and we have been holding steady there. Once February rolls around that figure will be ~30-35 with some more quality speed endurance injected. and yes, don't worry, strides after easy runs, he's doing core, etc.
Honestly I'm just excited that a talent like him has fallen to me, it seems like I can do no wrong with this kid and he will improve no matter what. I sort of already have an idea, but do these workouts seem like the base phase stuff you'd expect from a 4:10 miler? I've just never coached a young high schooler of this caliber and I can hardly believe my eyes - and I feel strange telling a 15 year old his season goal should be in the 4:10 range - I don't want to put expectations too far out there but I also really feel like he's bound to be knocking on the door of 4:0x this season. Thoughts?
P.S. any thoughts on his training? I don't proclaim to be a genius but I do feel like I have a pretty good grasp of training theory, but any feedback on how to optimize this further would be appreciated. I just want to avoid messing this kid up as much as possible, I've read too many stories of potential sub-4 talents gone to waste from shoddy high school coaching.
M 40-50 min easy run and strides
T tempo run (been 22-30 minutes for the most part, it's a little different every week). maybe a fartlek every third or fourth week
W 40-50 min easy run and strides
T long interval or hill repeat workout (usually totaling about 6-7km, stuff like 8x800 with 60-90 rest)
F 40-50 min easy run and strides
S - off
S - 65-80 minute easy run and pure speed
Regards,
Coach AM
I know I'm 4 months late to this, and I haven't read past the first post yet, but here are my thoughts on only the first post.
The biggest mistake coaches make with young athletes is seeing their success on low mileage and getting excited about what he can run on high mileage. He might actually respond better to max velocity training than threshold. He might be better off running 30 this year and driving down his 400 and 800 time instead.
You would be wise to model his training after Will Sumner. He focused on the 400 and is now having big breakthroughs at the 800. The max velocity training was key. Sumner is now the best young distance prospect in the nation.
Start your athlete as an 800m runner first. It is possible to run sub 4 in the mile at lower volume than your athlete is running (if max velocity is well developed).
You can’t say “with all due respect” and make false claims. I did no such reporting, I don’t even think of that as an option on this site. I don’t know who did that.
Yes, I said the “goal” was 51, that doesn’t mean he didn’t improve moron. His season is not over yet either and I suspect he could run 52 now given the 53 was last month. He certainly wasn’t this fast last year. He’s raced essentially only the mile so far, only 1 800 and 1 3200 both earlier in the season. That wasn’t up to me, his school pretty much only enters him in the mile because they only understand he is good at that. I wanted him to run more 800s.
You people need to think a bit more critically. You can run decent mileage and develop speed at the same time. 45 MPW WILL NOT hurt a kid’s development long term.
Initially I was on your side but now I think you are a lowlife. You posted here asking for advice and input, and when people provide their advice you call them a moron and say that people can't think critically. You clearly aren't here to seek honest training advice, you are here to humble-brag and stroke your own ego.
You said you suspected he could have run a 54 last year...now he's run 53. That's probably WORSE improvement in the 400 than he would have had naturally getting older. 60 minute runs at 6:15 pace (nearly 10 miles in 1 session) for a kid who never broke 15 miles per week the previous year? 30 minute tempo runs? He's getting more miles in 2 days (Sunday and Monday) of your training than he did in a whole week last year.
Most posters recommended more speed and less mileage. You did not implement any of their advice. Your athlete has fallen short of your goals and you need to realize that as the coach THAT FALLS ON YOU.
He has not fallen short. The goal was 4:10 and that is very much in play.
The poster I responded to was largely mistaken if you read the whole of both of our posts.
Yeah, he’s running a lot more than the absolute bare bones minimum. 15MPW is a “good grief” level of training. 45MPW in base and 30-35 in season - groundbreaking numbers for a 15/16 year old! That’s how mileage progression works. East Africans are the best in the world and they’re running more than 4much younger. So was Jakob. Americans don’t have the right mindset. If you want to run fast, you train hard.
I have implemented SOME of the advice given that I thought was fruitful. And in season we have done a lot less mileage and a lot more speed as you’d expect. He’s hovered around 35mpw the last 6 weeks sharpening up. Read my update post again.
Note: I've changed some details on his profile so he can't be identified, but I have a feeling most of the country will know his name soon.
History
Freshman year: Kid did not run a step until summer of 2021 - his first XC season he comes out opens up at 18:02 and PR's at 17:16 mid season on 15-20mpw and with no summer base. Takes a month off, joins the indoor track team, goes 5:06-4:50 in 2 indoor races (is still running with an inept high school coach having him do 15mpw doing all sorts of little things wrong). Goes right into outdoor, opens the season at 4:40, drops down to 4:28 in his last race in May on the same training. He also split 2:01.x on a 4x8 at some point and ran 10:00 for 32 on a double. Not too surprising seeing as he had zero aerobic development. Never ran a 400 of any kind unfortunately.
I heard about this kid and reached out to him because, honestly, what private coach wouldn't want to get their hands on such a talent - the school he goes to is notoriously bad at middle distance/distance running development, the school records are 4:20/9:20 from over 15 years ago - and I really wanted to see what he could do on something other than 15mpw with 8x400 every week during base phase. I've been working with him since this June.
I had him take a few weeks off after track then started base building. The second week back, he got into a moderately bad car accident. His injuries were non life-threatening but he was still out for 6 weeks late June to early August on doctor's orders with a concussion, an internal laceration and a fractured ulna (point being he got pretty banged up). I had thrown in the towel at this point on the XC season, I told him that it would be best to start from scratch and start a long build towards outdoor season, maybe hop in a few indoor races to break up the monotony and stay hungry and whatnot. However I realized it was best to just let him race the XC season as he is young and I don't want to keep him from that team experience - after all, he had success last year off of no summer as well.
He opened up the first race at 17:04 and ran 15:55 a month later on the same course (flamed out a little at the end of the season but that wasn't entirely surprising given that he ran less than 100 miles before the XC season started.
And now, I have finally got him doing an uninterrupted, full cycle buildup for the outdoor season, and the results have been absolutely spectacular even this early.
Recent workouts:
30 minute flat-ish tempo @ 5:26 (yes, a tempo, I tell him not to run all out but "comfortably hard")
25 minute extremely hilly tempo @ 5:25 (I personally was running this route @ 5:28 pace a month out from a 4:01 1500)
60 minutes @ 6:15 pace. on paper the workout was "1 hour uptempo" - he says 6-7 perceived effort.
5x1200m w/ 2 minutes recovery on trail at 3:42
7x1k w/ 90 sec recovery on trail at 3:02
14x400m w/ 1 minute recovery on trail @ 69.1 avg
A boat load of hill repeat workouts as well that won't have any meaning to any of you but seems are similar to things a few 3:5x-4:0x 1500m guys I've worked have done.
I know I've got him training like a 5k guy but it is only December, and I know that this kid has an absolutely unlimited aerobic reserve in there waiting to be tapped into. I've got him doing weekly pure speed stuff and speed maintenance strides as well so he'll be alright when we start running faster in February.
Every single workout I throw at this kid he knocks it out of the park and gets faster seemingly every run. I'm not having him blast these workouts to pieces either, he is running within himself and the next day is perfectly fine. In fact, I tell him to reign it in on the easy runs, he always wants to run sub 7 pace but I tell him to back off a little even if it feels easy.
I've built him up nice and slow since November from 20mpw to 40mpw and we have been holding steady there. Once February rolls around that figure will be ~30-35 with some more quality speed endurance injected. and yes, don't worry, strides after easy runs, he's doing core, etc.
Honestly I'm just excited that a talent like him has fallen to me, it seems like I can do no wrong with this kid and he will improve no matter what. I sort of already have an idea, but do these workouts seem like the base phase stuff you'd expect from a 4:10 miler? I've just never coached a young high schooler of this caliber and I can hardly believe my eyes - and I feel strange telling a 15 year old his season goal should be in the 4:10 range - I don't want to put expectations too far out there but I also really feel like he's bound to be knocking on the door of 4:0x this season. Thoughts?
P.S. any thoughts on his training? I don't proclaim to be a genius but I do feel like I have a pretty good grasp of training theory, but any feedback on how to optimize this further would be appreciated. I just want to avoid messing this kid up as much as possible, I've read too many stories of potential sub-4 talents gone to waste from shoddy high school coaching.
M 40-50 min easy run and strides
T tempo run (been 22-30 minutes for the most part, it's a little different every week). maybe a fartlek every third or fourth week
W 40-50 min easy run and strides
T long interval or hill repeat workout (usually totaling about 6-7km, stuff like 8x800 with 60-90 rest)
F 40-50 min easy run and strides
S - off
S - 65-80 minute easy run and pure speed
Regards,
Coach AM
I know I'm 4 months late to this, and I haven't read past the first post yet, but here are my thoughts on only the first post.
The biggest mistake coaches make with young athletes is seeing their success on low mileage and getting excited about what he can run on high mileage. He might actually respond better to max velocity training than threshold. He might be better off running 30 this year and driving down his 400 and 800 time instead.
You would be wise to model his training after Will Sumner. He focused on the 400 and is now having big breakthroughs at the 800. The max velocity training was key. Sumner is now the best young distance prospect in the nation.
Start your athlete as an 800m runner first. It is possible to run sub 4 in the mile at lower volume than your athlete is running (if max velocity is well developed).
Yeah this was pretty much covered in the thread and was the consensus and was reflected in what we did this season. Thanks.
It doesn't have to be either or. You can improve max velocity and threshold during the same training phase. If you fall into the trap of only max velocity (ie. Feed the Cats), you will never develop aerobic ability. It is possible to implement max velocity while also developing aerobic capacity.
I know I'm 4 months late to this, and I haven't read past the first post yet, but here are my thoughts on only the first post.
The biggest mistake coaches make with young athletes is seeing their success on low mileage and getting excited about what he can run on high mileage. He might actually respond better to max velocity training than threshold. He might be better off running 30 this year and driving down his 400 and 800 time instead.
You would be wise to model his training after Will Sumner. He focused on the 400 and is now having big breakthroughs at the 800. The max velocity training was key. Sumner is now the best young distance prospect in the nation.
Start your athlete as an 800m runner first. It is possible to run sub 4 in the mile at lower volume than your athlete is running (if max velocity is well developed).
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