If Mo had focused on the 800/1500m, how much faster than 3:28 do you think he would have run? Walker and Scott, who both ran 1:45, knew they could never outkick the Brits and focused on strength instead and there was nothing they could have done to improve their 400m speed. Runners cannot change their strengths and weaknesses by adjusting their training.
But isn't that, Aztec, what Jake Wightman just did to boost his strength to allow him to be able to unleash his (slightly superior to Jakob Ingebrigtsen's) finishing speed?
Sort of. He ran a great 8 off that sprint training, followed by a horrific Olympic showing. This prompted a complete overhaul of his training to train like a longer distance racer and gain the strength necessary to excel in the 15. So he adjusted his training twice, but we don’t know exactly what influence each had on him.
If Mo had focused on the 800/1500m, how much faster than 3:28 do you think he would have run? Walker and Scott, who both ran 1:45, knew they could never outkick the Brits and focused on strength instead and there was nothing they could have done to improve their 400m speed. Runners cannot change their strengths and weaknesses by adjusting their training.
Comparing a runners ability to step down from 5000m to 1500m and 5000m to 800m is one of apples to oranges though. Like I said, 1500m is aerobically dominant, 5000m is aerobically dominant, 800m is anaerobically dominant.
A world class marathon/half marathon guy stepping down and dropping a world class 5k/10k is not surprising and usually to be expected. This is because they tax the same energy systems, despite being 10-20 miles shorter.
A world class 3k/5000m guy dropping down to run world class 400/800m times is unheard of, and Jakob trains like a 3k/5k runner, not a miler.
You also need to understand Farrah trained with a lot more speed than Jakob does. Mo did tons of work at mile/800m pace and even some top end work under NOP, so I don’t think it’s even fair to compare the two in that sense.
Walker and Scott didn’t improve their speed because they couldn’t period, they didn’t because if they improved their speed it would be detrimental to their 1500m endurance, why improve your 400m by 1-1.5 seconds if it costs your 1500m 3-5 because of reduced aerobic fitness and increased body mass?
I must reiterate my point, I guarantee you Jakob is capable of 1:43high to 1:44low if he cut his mileage down to 60, hit weights, plyometrics, and speed work. It just would be a fruitless endeavor, because he’d go from being a world #1 1500/5k guy to a world class but ultimately also ran 800m runner.
The crux of the issue is whether it’s really possible to increase 400 speed by 1-1.5 seconds. If Scott and Walker could have accomplished that, they could have gone sub-1:43 and I don’t believe that was possible. No change in training would have made their strength go away.
You can speculate but at the end of the day, you are what you ran.
And Bernard Lagat ran the 800 many times and he couldn't break 146 for the life of him. And he ran 326. I don't think El Guerrouj would be a whole lot faster nor would Yakob.
Seriously? Hicham ran 1 800m in his entire career in 1995 and thats the end all be all for it? He obviously could run faster, use your brain it makes no sense to anchor to a time ran when his 1500 pb was 3:33.
Haha he ran 1:46 at the end of a championship 1500. I know some on LR will say "well, he had a running start," but I think it's safe to say he could have broke 1:46. 1:43-1:44.5 seems much more realistic if El G ran his perfect 800.
Look man if Yakob ran 146 on a freezing cold day in February in Sadnes you could say he could obviously faster. I get that some people's PRs don't reflect their current ability. But Yakob ran 147 smack dab in the middle of the season. You can't just wave your hands and subtract 2 or 3 seconds just for funsies. I've gone further down this rabbit hole than most of you and I know what I'm talking about here.
Your knowledge about that actual race is zero!
The race was run in cold, windy, rainy Bergen on the west coast of Norway.
The winner of the race, Tony van Diepen, ran 1:46.56. Less than a week before van Diepen ran 1.44.31 under better weather conditions. And within 10 days after the race in Bergen van Diepen ran 1:44.24 and 1:44.14.
If Jakob had run under the same good weather conditions he could possibly have run at least 1:45.
-----------
AND van Diepen started the season by running 1:47.10. As you perhaps are aware it is normal for an 800m runner to run progressively faster as he is sharpening through competitions.
So if Jakob ran some more 800m races and under better weather conditions he could probably go well below 1:45.
But we might never know because he will possibly continue to focus on the distances from the 1500m and up.
Look man if Yakob ran 146 on a freezing cold day in February in Sadnes you could say he could obviously faster. I get that some people's PRs don't reflect their current ability. But Yakob ran 147 smack dab in the middle of the season. You can't just wave your hands and subtract 2 or 3 seconds just for funsies. I've gone further down this rabbit hole than most of you and I know what I'm talking about here.
Your knowledge about that actual race is zero!
The race was run in cold, windy, rainy Bergen on the west coast of Norway.
The winner of the race, Tony van Diepen, ran 1:46.56. Less than a week before van Diepen ran 1.44.31 under better weather conditions. And within 10 days after the race in Bergen van Diepen ran 1:44.24 and 1:44.14.
If Jakob had run under the same good weather conditions he could possibly have run at least 1:45.
-----------
AND van Diepen started the season by running 1:47.10. As you perhaps are aware it is normal for an 800m runner to run progressively faster as he is sharpening through competitions.
So if Jakob ran some more 800m races and under better weather conditions he could probably go well below 1:45.
But we might never know because he will possibly continue to focus on the distances from the 1500m and up.
Unless Jakob is able to run 22-high at least for the 200m I don't see how he can possibly run 1.44-5. As far as I can see he lacks that kind of speed, which is the minimum for an 800m runner in that region.
Unless Jakob is able to run 22-high at least for the 200m I don't see how he can possibly run 1.44-5. As far as I can see he lacks that kind of speed, which is the minimum for an 800m runner in that region.
I'm willing to bet serious money that some sub 1:45 people couldn't run a sub 23sec 200m to save their lives.
Unless Jakob is able to run 22-high at least for the 200m I don't see how he can possibly run 1.44-5. As far as I can see he lacks that kind of speed, which is the minimum for an 800m runner in that region.
I'm willing to bet serious money that some sub 1:45 people couldn't run a sub 23sec 200m to save their lives.
I don't think you appreciate how fast you have to be to run 800 at that speed. A 23s runner might be able to achieve 49s for 400. I don't see that they could put two 52x laps together off that - a 3sec or so differential.
In a TV interview, El G affirmed that 3 weeks before 2004 Olympic Games, he run 2:14 in the 1000m in training tests at Ifran. And because of that he was sure he will be the winner in the Olympic Games.
This fact could fortifies the idea that he was a potential 1:43 800m while in his peak.
I'm willing to bet serious money that some sub 1:45 people couldn't run a sub 23sec 200m to save their lives.
I don't think you appreciate how fast you have to be to run 800 at that speed. A 23s runner might be able to achieve 49s for 400. I don't see that they could put two 52x laps together off that - a 3sec or so differential.
FAT 200m speed for 800m runners can be deceiving too. You don’t need the acceleration but you need the top end. I’ll counter Skuj’s point by saying 95% of sub 1:50 guys can hit a running start sub 23. Speed endurance/ speed reserve is a real and necessary thing.
it’s the same thing as weightlifting. You are not going to have a maximum bench press of 225 and do 210 for reps, even if you just train your pectorals specifically for endurance for whatever hypothetical reason.
Id even put the benchmark for sub 1:45 at closer to 22 seconds than 23 or 24.
To be clear I agree with Skuj, highly highly doubt Matt Centrowitz could have ever run 23.0 from blocks. Flying, it would be close IMO. But there are better experts on the boards
He ran 1:46 in 2020. Surely he could go sub 1:45 now?
I know that 800m is not his focus, but let's say that in his quest for 3:25.99 he decided to do more 800m training and racing (which I think he should if 3:25.99 is a major goal, but I digress, ever so slightly.) Could he be a 1:43 guy? Wouldn't he need to be at least a 1:43 guy if he wants 3:25.99?
Discus.
I still think we are a long way from starting to talk about 3:25.99.
I wrote this in another thread a month ago, about a realistic 800m potential of 1:44.92 based on performances he has already achieved in the 1500m and the 5000m:
If we have two comparable performances from one athlete, we can characterize these performances with two parameters: speed and endurance, using a formula that is similar, but more generalized, to Horwill's 4-second rule.
If we curve fit Jakob's more mature 1500m and 5000m performances, this is characterized by a 400m speed of 49.05 seconds, and 1:44.92 for 800m, with a 3.41 second slowdown per lap, as the distance doubles. This is good endurance, but not off the charts, and quite reasonable for an elite athlete like Jakob who is a 1500m/5000m specialist. When you compare these results with his real 400m record of 51.03 seconds, (at almost 16 years of age), and 1:46.44 (at almost 20 years of age), then 49.05s and 1:44.92, don't seem all that unrealistic, all else being equal.
Performing a similar exercise across the board, from 400m to 10000m, reveals that, in addition to the 400m/800m being unrealized, his mile, 3000m, and 10000m times are comparatively slow. Based on the 1500m and 5000m, at the same performance level, he should be capable of 3:44.9 for the mile, 7:22.2 for 3000m, and 27:02.3 for the 10000m.