Fact is, a lot of people on these boards don't care about the difference. They just want an opportunity to look morally superior and be spiteful.
If anyone does care: DSD athletes (XXY athletes / intersex athletes) express external (genital) characteristics of being female early in life. As they mature, their testosterone levels are higher, and they express some physical features in body shape more like men. I might not agree that XXY athletes should be able to compete against XX athletes due to their inherent advantages with that Y chromosome, but 1) they are women and 2) there should be mechanisms to let them compete and represent their nation.
M2W trans athletes also have inherent advantages due to their Y chromosome. Their transition might technically be a choice, but their innate biology drives them towards transition. Just like XXY athletes, I don't agree they should be able compete against XX women, but 1) they are women and 2) there should be mechanisms to let them compete and represent their nation.
Maybe we should start competitions and awards for intersex and M2W athletes like we have for paralympics? Imagine an intersex 800m at the WC. Would be pretty incredible competition, I think!
Inclusion is morally superior to exclusion. Fairness is morally superior to unfairness. So both sides have a moral point, it would be nice to see more synthesis of the views instead of people dismissing the other side's points altogether.
For example, if Getachew met the standards of qualifying for the race without trying to hide anything, we shouldn't complain, but some people might want the standards to become more strict.
Agreed. While I think the DSD standards need to be expanded to all events, it’s unfair to show hostility to athletes like Getachew, Mboma, Seyni, etc. Do I think it’s unfair to non-DSD women? Absolutely, but that is hostility that should be directed at the world athletics governing body, not individual athletes that are following the rules correctly. For athletes in rural Ethiopia, running is an escape from abject poverty, so I understand why Getachew was quick to change events.
Inclusion is morally superior to exclusion. Fairness is morally superior to unfairness. So both sides have a moral point, it would be nice to see more synthesis of the views instead of people dismissing the other side's points altogether.
For example, if Getachew met the standards of qualifying for the race without trying to hide anything, we shouldn't complain, but some people might want the standards to become more strict.
Agreed. While I think the DSD standards need to be expanded to all events, it’s unfair to show hostility to athletes like Getachew, Mboma, Seyni, etc. Do I think it’s unfair to non-DSD women? Absolutely, but that is hostility that should be directed at the world athletics governing body, not individual athletes that are following the rules correctly. For athletes in rural Ethiopia, running is an escape from abject poverty, so I understand why Getachew was quick to change events.
How is it hostile to say only women should compete against women?
Thanks, RunRagged. I thought Caster and other intersex athletes were actually XXY, not XY. I thought all intersex expression was XX or XXY - so thanks for the education. I've been misinformed!
I think the point still stands that there are inherent traits (sex) that has an outsized impact on athletic capabilities, which may to some extent be modified by hormones, but generally creates a structural advantage. And this is different from gender, which is fluid and not inherent (e.g., there are XY people who identify as women). But identifying as a woman does not mean they can necessarily compete with XX women given above advantages.
And the original sentiment stands as well: we are a horribly negative crowd focused on problems created by track leadership and blaming these women for them rather than finding beneficial solutions.
At the time of birth, the testes of the athletes affected by the WA rules pertaining to DSDs in women's competition typically had not finished descending into the scrotal sac. They were usually were born with penises that were minuscule and/or malformed (hypospadias) or penises that were missing altogether. But none of them have any female organs. Their internal organs are the typical males ones: prostates, male seminal vesicles and ducts. None of them have a uterus, cervix, Fallopian tubes, ovaries or vagina.
Other than being in an unusual location at birth, there is nothing wrong with the testes of the XY DSD athletes competing in women's sports. Their testes function fine in terms of producing the massive amounts of testosterone customary for males. In many cases, their testes function fine in terms of producing sperm too. With ART, many of the XY DSD athletes competing in women's sports can father children.
You nailed it. When you are born, which do you theoretically have a possibility of doing? Father children? Male category. Give birth? Female category.
Yes I know some people are infertilbe but if you don't have an ovary but have internal testes, it's clear to me what category you are for sports.
I have no idea if this person is a male. But the term 'male' does not require the the qualifier 'genetic'. There is only one type of male, and that is the genetic type.
You know EXACTLY what you were doing by asking this question. You are a disgrace of a person and should feel ashamed to call yourself a journalist. Get a life. I will see to it to have your press credentials revoked
What are you talking about? I didn't ask any questions. I'm no longer in Eugene. Our reporter asked an athlete who is the national record holder in the 800 if they are eligible for the 800 but didn't ask it specifically enough. Am I trying to find out if she's eligible for that event? Yes.
So what. I'm not judging. Your implication is there is something to be embarrassed about. I"m of the belief that she was born a certain way and can't control it - but this is important for us to know as we try to figure out how to handle these and transgender cases.
She can always say, "I''m not going to answer that question."
The reason why you have to ban people of a certain testosterone level is because there is no sex testing at all. Think about it. In this day and age of people being allowed to legally change their gender. What would prevent a full blown biological male from getting a female passport and entering the meet as a woman. World Athletics would know their testosterone level is high but would have no idea if they were born male or female, right?
So it really doesn't matter if someone is DSD or Trans. It ends up being the same issue.
The solution for the Trans and DSD issues is the same, and Great Britain Triathlon has figured it out.
One division for XX human beings and another Open Division for everyone else.
It ain't complicated.
The thing is, we need to stop referring to gender, which can be chosen or misidentified, and use chromosomes as the basis for assignment to a division.
At the time of birth, the testes of the athletes affected by the WA rules pertaining to DSDs in women's competition typically had not finished descending into the scrotal sac. They were usually were born with penises that were minuscule and/or malformed (hypospadias) or penises that were missing altogether. But none of them have any female organs. Their internal organs are the typical males ones: prostates, male seminal vesicles and ducts. None of them have a uterus, cervix, Fallopian tubes, ovaries or vagina.
Hmm, I wonder if you can clarify that last statement. Semenya has said she is willing to show track officials her vagina if they don't believe she is a woman: “I told them, 'It's fine. I'm a female. I don't care. If you want to see I'm a woman, I will show you my vagina. Alright?'”
Do you believe she is misrepresenting, or perhaps misunderstanding, her anatomy in that regard, or is Semenya not the kind of DSD athlete you were referring to?
For anyone reading this thread, RunRagged also has some great contributions to the thread on Caster Semenya (ESPN: "Caster Semenya listed to run at worlds in Oregon" (5000m)):
The solution for the Trans and DSD issues is the same, and Great Britain Triathlon has figured it out.
One division for XX human beings and another Open Division for everyone else.
It ain't complicated.
The thing is, we need to stop referring to gender, which can be chosen or misidentified, and use chromosomes as the basis for assignment to a division.
^^^^^This. That should be the end of the thread.
the end of the thread should probably answer the question the title of the thread poses.
her sex is not male (or female), her sex is intersex. nothing to do with gender at all.
They kicked them out of the 800 and 1500m when they were medalling too much. Semenya and Niyonsaba amongst others. No medals and they can participate freely. If they medal, then changes are made. Problem is it's too late. Proactive is better than reactive. They've been reactive thus far. Liberalism and fake wokeness via irrational and overly emotional SJWs is a disturbing problem.
Honestly, conservative dickheads railing against liberals and wholeness are the worst people alive. A small percentage of liberals support XY or trans people in womens sport, and they do it coming from a good place. They just happen to be wrong.
A much larger percentage of Republicans and conservatives are fascists and / or nazis.
What a thrilling race, though! Were you not entertained? I thought Getachew's goose was cooked when Abebe passed her with a lap to go, but that last water trap just destroyed Yavi's momentum and no one, regardless of their biological makeup, was going to take down Jeruto who posted almost the identical time at Hayward field a year earlier.
They kicked them out of the 800 and 1500m when they were medalling too much. Semenya and Niyonsaba amongst others. No medals and they can participate freely. If they medal, then changes are made. Problem is it's too late. Proactive is better than reactive. They've been reactive thus far. Liberalism and fake wokeness via irrational and overly emotional SJWs is a disturbing problem.
Honestly, conservative dickheads railing against liberals and wholeness are the worst people alive. A small percentage of liberals support XY or trans people in womens sport, and they do it coming from a good place. They just happen to be wrong.
A much larger percentage of Republicans and conservatives are fascists and / or nazis.
You can build a cell phone tower in the shape of a tree and say it is a tree repeatedly. You can even have been honest in your misunderstanding that it is a tree, saying 'it looks like one from a distance'. In your confusion you might tell others about 'that oddly symmetrical tree down the street'. But when you find out it is a cell phone tower you'd be wrong to invent a new term like 'robotic tree' in order to describe it. You'd also be wrong to keep thinking of it as a tree. It will never grow. It will never drop seeds or put down roots. It will never generate oxygen. Turns out having some of the traits of a tree isn't the same as having the necessary ones.
The frequency, intention, or convenience of false information does not color its veracity.
So if memory serves, the athletes who have been banned, or limited in events, for being inter-sex are African. Is this more of an African phenomena? In other words, where are European or American inter-sex athletes? do they not gravitate toward track and field?
There is one study that does mention a prevalence in "southern Africa" which suggests a genetic disposition. It's interesting that we don't see stories of DSD track athletes in the US even at the high school or NCAA level. Likely it's because these athletes are ostracized (or, at least, feel ostracized) very early in life and have given up even youth soccer leagues by the time they go through puberty.
At the time of birth, the testes of the athletes affected by the WA rules pertaining to DSDs in women's competition typically had not finished descending into the scrotal sac. They were usually were born with penises that were minuscule and/or malformed (hypospadias) or penises that were missing altogether. But none of them have any female organs. Their internal organs are the typical males ones: prostates, male seminal vesicles and ducts. None of them have a uterus, cervix, Fallopian tubes, ovaries or vagina.
Hmm, I wonder if you can clarify that last statement. Semenya has said she is willing to show track officials her vagina if they don't believe she is a woman: “I told them, 'It's fine. I'm a female. I don't care. If you want to see I'm a woman, I will show you my vagina. Alright?'”
Do you believe she is misrepresenting, or perhaps misunderstanding, her anatomy in that regard, or is Semenya not the kind of DSD athlete you were referring to?
For anyone reading this thread, RunRagged also has some great contributions to the thread on Caster Semenya (ESPN: "Caster Semenya listed to run at worlds in Oregon" (5000m)):
Yes, I think Semenya is misrepresenting. The vagina is an internal organ, namely "the muscular tube leading from the external genitals to the cervix of the uterus in women and most female mammals."
The only way to see a human vagina is to do an internal pelvic exam with a speculum like gynecologists use. Only the vaginal opening can been seen from the outside. But the vaginal opening is considered part of the vulva. The correct name for the external female genital anatomy consisting of labia, clitoris, female urethra and vaginal opening is vulva.
People with XY 5-ARD and the other sorts of XY DSDs covered by the WA regulations for women's competition are typically born with ambiguous-looking genitals. Because their testes don't descend into the scrotum, their empty scrotal sacs appear flattened - like a ball or balloon without any air in it. They often have a shallow indented skin pouch in their groin that's called a pseudo-vaginal opening, a blind vaginal pouch or a dimple. These orifices are very shallow - usually under an inch in depth - and do not have any of the characteristics of human vaginas. They are not muscular tubes with elastic capacity to expand in width and depth like vaginas do during sexual activity and childbirth; and they are not lined with the self-cleaning and lubricating mucosal tissue that vaginas have.
Classic presentation of 5-ARD [in XY persons]:
There may be a clitoris-like phallus, a cleft in the midline of the scrotum caused by incomplete fusion (a bifid scrotum), half-female half-male-looking genitalia (pseudovaginal perineoscrotal hypospadias, PPSH), and what appears to be a version of a prostate.
People with 5 ARD may appear more masculine in the genital area, without a separate vaginal opening, and a blind vaginal pouch that opens into the urethra, and perhaps the abnormal positioning of the very end of the urethra on the penis (penile hypospadias).
They are without a uterus or fallopian tubes due to normal secretions from the intact testes (which don’t rely on androgens for development) of Müllerian-inhibiting factor.
Those with 5 ARD have seminal vesicles, vasa deferentia, epididymides, and ejaculatory ducts, with a small prostate that can’t be felt, and isn’t thought to cause prostate problems (cancer, benign prostatic hyperplasia).
5 ARD only affects boys in any significant way, since girls with this condition have few consequences, and retain fertility and genitalia. A woman may never know she has this.
5 ARD is a genetic blip that blocks the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) in a growing foetus. DHT is required for the penis and testicles to develop in a male foetus, resulting in ambiguous genitalia. P...
There has almost certainly been a lot of intersex athletes through T&A history, the difference today is that most of them don't bother to try to look female, in lack of a better word they're "ugly" according to traditional female standards, but they don't care that men think so any longer.
