FINA Bans Lia Thomas and Trans Women Who Did not Transition Before Age 12 from Competing Against Women

seriously so relieved. It's a little funny to see the trans activists "terf! terf! terf! transphobe! transphobe! transphobe!" their way through this. They have nothing.

Don't get me wrong, transphobia DOES exist. Personally I think we should keep our noses out of other people's business, which includes medical interventions, and honor pronouns, and identity in other ways. But women's sports is such a blatant overstep and so unfair. Everyone deserves respect, bodily autonomy, and to be themselves but they can't do it at the cost of others, and transwomen unfairly competing in women's sports is at the cost of females, full stop.

There are trans women who agree with this and who feel it is unfair. Most women believe it is completely unfair for trans women to compete against them. The high profile trans women who have competed and done well against their cis competitors have shown that they are extremely arrogant, narcissistic, and deluded. Telling girls to "work harder" or claiming that they are at a disadvantage because they are taller (Cece Telfer) is insulting.

FINA's about 50 years too late.

FINA ruling should be universal for all sport. They are also the organization that banned the "carbon shoes of swimming" , swim skin suits

Regarding your claim that "Sport is full of androgenous women and many will find out they are XY with an androgen insensitivity syndrome and will be barred because their parents didn't record their T levels when they were in middle school" - I have two responses:

1) Please stop insulting androgynous women and girls by suggesting that many of us are XY with disorders of male sex development. It's regressively sexist and incredibly misogynistic to suggest that women and girls who don't conform to strict - and chafing and confining - cultural and social standards of femininity are actually biological males with undetected disorders of male sex development.

Female human beings come in a vast variety, and we are all over the map in terms of gender presentation, affect and behaviors. But one thing we all have in common is that we are all biologically female. None of us have testes!

Androgynous and butch women and girls have female gonads (ovaries), female genetics, female reproductive organs, female hormone profiles, and female anatomy and physiology just as much as girls and women who conform to all the social and cultural norms of femininity do.

Androgynous and butch women have periods, get menstrual cramps, experience PMDD and PMS, worry about unwanted pregnancy, have babies, breastfeed, go through menopause, and experience the same range of gynecological issues and female-specific health problems that women who are super-feminine in appearance and affect do. Not even girls and women with conditions that can cause genuine hyperandrogenism like classic CAH or PCOS go through male development in utero, male mini puberty of infancy or male puberty of adolescence.

2) Please take the time to read the FINA regulations.

XY athletes with all disorders of male sex development other than CAIS will be barred from female competition unless they can prove they did not go through male pubertal development in adolescence even in attenuated form. Under the regulations, XY athletes who had their testes removed in childhood before age 12, or who have had their T levels suppressed to below 2.5 nmol/L since age 12, would be able to seek eligibility.

BTW, the FINA policy is not encouraging that any male children have their testes removed or their testosterone suppressed. The FINA policy is simply taking into account the fact some males were, and today are being, subjected to testicle removal and T suppression in childhood either supposedly to "correct" male DSDs or because the adults in their lives have decided to "medically transition" them so they will outwardly appear to be more like the opposite sex.

If girls' and women's sports really are as "full of XY athletes with androgen insensitivity syndrome" as you say, then in my opinion it's high time officials discover this and start weeding out all the ones with male advantage. After all, androgen insensitivity syndrome is by definition a disorder exclusively of male sex development that can only affect persons with XY sex chromosomes and with testes that produce male amounts of testosterone. The testes of XY adults with AIS often produce testosterone in ranges that far exceed the normal adult male, in fact. If women's sports really are "full of" athletes like that and no one is aware of it, women's sports has a problem that needs to be addressed.

Another upside of returning to mandatory sex chromosome testing for participants in women's sports is that would finally bring an end to the days when sexists and misogynists keep alleging that girls and women who do sports and don't hew to regressive sex stereotypes of femininity are most likely XY with undetected disorders of male sex development.

Maybe once it's known for certain that all the athletes competing in women's sports are female, people who believe wholeheartedly in the grotesque sex stereotypes that the gender vendors are pushing would be better able to see that female human beings naturally come in a wide, wide variety of types, we have a vast array of personal styles and we are very diverse in our personalities, interests, hair styles, grooming habits and so on. Maybe then you'd also come to understand that there are many, many significant physical differences between biological females who are androgynous or butch and biological males with male-only disorders of male sex development.

I'm mostly on board with this, but when it comes to casual competition I think it's fine for trans women to compete, and I want them to be included. But when it comes to large sums of money (maybe $1000+), it's unfair. Glad FINA is trying to push for some compromise, which is very necessary for this polarizing subject.

Oh, but imagine if T&F had 50 worm!

Since you've got it all figured out could you explain how a 300 lb heavyweight is going to cut weight and get to flyweight (112 lbs)? No surprise you are trying to argue that someone born a male can and should compete against women.

It is not an Olympic event, but 50m free is. And it's well known that old sprinters remain competitive in 50m long after their peak in 100m. Dara Torres won a silver in 50m at age 41. The same could happen on the men's side.

From Fina’s Science Group.

The Science Group reported that biological sex is a key determinant of athletic performance, with males outperforming females in sports (including Aquatics sports) that are primarily determined by neuromuscular, cardiovascular, and respiratory function, and anthropometrics including body and limb size. The extent of the male/female performance gap varies by sport and competition, but the gap universally emerges starting from the onset of puberty. The group reported that there are sex-linked biological differences in Aquatics, especially among elite athletes, that are largely the result of the substantially higher levels of testosterone to which males are exposed from puberty onwards. Prior to puberty, testosterone levels are similar in females and males. During puberty, however, testes-derived testosterone concentrations increase 20-fold in males, while testosterone concentrations remain low in females so that post-pubescent males have circulating testosterone concentrations at least 15 times higher than post-pubescent females (15-20 nmol/L in adult males versus c.1 nmol/L in typical females of any age). High testosterone levels generate not only anatomical divergence in the reproductive system but also measurably different body types/compositions between sexes.

According to the Science Group, if gender-affirming male-to-female transition consistent with the medical standard of care is initiated after the onset of puberty, it will blunt some, but not all, of the effects of testosterone on body structure, muscle function, and other determinants of performance, but there will be persistent legacy effects that will give male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) a relative performance advantage over biological females. A biological female athlete cannot overcome that advantage through training or nutrition. Nor can they take additional testosterone to obtain the same advantage, because testosterone is a prohibited substance under the World Anti-Doping Code.

So..How is Tanner Stage 2 accurately determined if puberty in males can begin anywhere from 9-13 years old? If males from 9-11 years old show Tanner Stage 2 and are not accurately diagnosed as beginning puberty, then the “legacy effects...will give male-to-female transgender athletes (transgender women) a relative performance advantage over biological females...”

https://resources.fina.org/fina/document/2022/06/19/525de003-51f4-47d3-8d5a-716dac5f77c7/FINA-INCLUSION-POLICY-AND-APPENDICES-FINAL-.pdf

in this paragraph, FINA should have added that member federations representing countries where there's no freely available transitioning before the age of 12 will be banned from FINA events due to government policy interference with FINA matters...FINA often ban members whose swimming federation business is influenced by government interference...this is the bit where FINA loses its case in court

Athletes with PAIS are still allowed to compete if they maintain their t-level below 2.5 nmol/L. So what happens to those who discover their PAIS after their 12th birthday? Here is what the FINA policy says.

"An unintentional deviation from the below 2.5 nmol/L requirement may result in retrospective disqualification of results and/or a prospective period of ineligibility."

So if I were a lawyer representing an athlete, I would make an argument that my client's failure to comply with the t-level requirement after her 12th birthday was "unintentional." Either she didn't know she had PAIS, or her parents didn't allow her to take hormone replacement therapy, or her doctor / parents did not keep the record because they did not think she would be an elite athlete. Either way, my client did not have control over her situation, and therefore her non-compliance was unintentional.

If kids under 12 (or their parents) are more concerned about their chances to compete in an easier division in the Olympics than everything else in their life, then there are bigger problems than FINA's efforts here...

I feel like this is a reasonable (though hard to enforce) solution to the issue.

I disagree. They can compete in the men's category, or local races can also create an "open" category. My 2nd place podium spot in a Turkey trot means just as much to me, as it does to them. Why is their chance to win a podium spot more important than mine?

This means to ensure their continued participation, all girls involved in swimming will need to be genetically tested at 12 years old to check they do NOT have an androgen syndrome, because finding out later means you will not have a full record your T levels did not exceed 2.5 nmol/L during puberty.

This could affect anyone and anyone's daughter. Don't assume you would know, as especially before puberty, there could be no indicators. Be prepared.

There will be countless women athletes caught in this and will need to seek legal help to navigate FINA's new rules. A burden not placed on the men's sport.

Well, read the policy more carefully. It says unintentional deviation "MAY result in retrospective disqualification of results and/or a prospective PERIOD of ineligibility."

Those are the two keywords. A "period" of ineligibility means it's not a permanent ban. And the length of that period could vary. And it also says" may result in ineligibility, meaning it may NOT result in ineligibility depending on the circumstances. As I wrote above, I think I would have a very good case at CAS if I were representing a minor athlete.

Here is someone who thought her daughter had CAIS until she was 12. Then she discovered that her daughter actually had 5-ARD.

The sorts of arguments you recommend a PAIS athlete employ in court are in line with the same arguments that were used to open up women's and girls' sports to XY athletes with disorders of male sex development in the first place: the physical advantages of these athletes are unintentional ... they didn't ask to be born this way... they didn't know about their DSD conditions before... no one checked or kept records when they were kids... they have no control over their situation...

I don't think these arguments are going to hold up in courts of law or in the court of public opinion any more. Over the past decade, and particularly during and since the Chand and Semenya cases were litigated, people in sports science, sports governance, law and women's rights and female-only sports advocates like me have learned a great deal about the specific disorders of male sex development that pose such a problem in women's sports. Fact is, the enormous male advantages that XY DSD athletes with conditions like PAIS and XY 5-ARD confer on athletes such as Chand, Semenya and all the rest create unfairness for female athletes regardless of what the XY DSD athletes intend/ed or meant.

The only way that the arguments you recommend can work is if you take the position that inclusion of XY DSD athletes in female sports is such an important, worthy objective that it should override the objective of fairness and safety for female athletes.

In response to the arguments you recommend, I'd point out that female competitors have no control over how we were born, either. When we were little kids, we didn't know much or really anything about the array of biological differences that would later come to matter so much when we reached the age of participating in adolescent and adult sports.

Growing up, most of us had no idea that once female puberty of adolescence began we'd be put at a huge disadvantage compared to our male peers who were going through male puberty - and compared to all males who had already been through adolescence. Our lack of male gonads, male anatomy, male physiology and male sports ability isn't intentional.

Those who back the inclusion of males with DSDs (and opposite-sex gender identities) in women's and girls' sports frequently say that female athletes could overcome our biological disadvantages relative to males in sports simply by trying harder, training smarter and taking a more "can do" attitude. But the fact of the matter is that our situation relative to males in sports is not something that we can control, either.

Well lookee here! It's the "Concern Troll"! He's just so concerned about all this...

I think money also had a big impact on why FINA took this situation so seriously. Swimming is an expensive sport and when people with money are more vocal, your issues tend to get addressed. I think it will be harder to see this kind of ruling in sports with lower economic barriers to entry.