Katir confirms what Ramzi already told us - full throttle EPO improves 1500m times by 8 - 10 seconds

Ding dong Katir is gone wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

I’m aware of one study on relatively fast Kenyans, with no control group, and no baseline controls, where the scientists got Kenyans to run 3000m at their marathon pace, and then, with EPO, got them to run 3000m at their half-marathon pace.

Multiple choice quiz — more than one answer may apply:

- EPO helped Kenyans run their 1 hour race pace for 8 minutes

- scientists are not very good coaches

- scientists drawing conclusions from studies without control groups are not very good scientists

D) Kenyas are very FOOLISH for taking EPO, wihch accounts for 12% of their AAFs.

E) Sure. Kenyans would be running slower than 3:35 for the 1500 if not for their incredibly sophisticated doping, according to Coevett and other morons like you:

efq wrote:

Ding dong Katir is gone wrote:

D) Kenyas are very FOOLISH for taking EPO, wihch accounts for 12% of their AAFs.

E) Sure. Kenyans would be running slower than 3:35 for the 1500 if not for their incredibly sophisticated doping, according to Coevett and other morons like you:

https://www.reuters.com/article/sport-doping-kenya-idINKCN1M7263

Morons like me? Wow. Glad you got that off your chest.

My favourite Kenyan was Augustine Choge, who ran 3:29. I don't think for a moment that he was on EPO and have absolutely no reason to suspect so. My argument is that Canova doesn't believe that EPO assists Kenyans. He was quick to defend Katir just the same. It's ostrich fodder.

Bilbo Baggins the Fourth wrote:

How many studies show that EPO makes a massive difference, and how many studies show that it makes no or little difference to athletic performance?

There is a large body of data on how EPO enhances different factors tending to correlate with real life performance such as Vo2Max and time-to-exhaustion, but the subjects are almost without exceptions only recreational athletes / low-level amateurs. The control groups are also more exception than a rule, therefore uncontrolled extra training / psychological factors can have affected the outcomes even if one assumes that improvements in Vo2max or TTE even can increase real-life performance to a significant degree.

AFAIK, the amount of studies focusing on measuring running or cycling speed associated with EPO treatment is three -- two British experiments with no control group and one Dutch paper with a control group.

The Britons found ~5 % improvements in three different cohorts in their uncontrolled tests after EPO-administration, whereas the Dutch researchers found that the EPO-group didn't cycle faster than the placebo group in a paper with somewhat questionable protocol.

efq wrote:

[

E) Sure. Kenyans would be running slower than 3:35 for the 1500 if not for their incredibly sophisticated doping, according to Coevett and other morons like you:

https://www.reuters.com/article/sport-doping-kenya-idINKCN1M7263

EPO doesn't require sophistication. Perhaps with the ABP - that's why over 100 Kenyans have been busted in the last decade.

I'd agree that the only reasons the WR is still Moroccan rather than Kenyan is because Moroccans were more sophisticated with their doping.

The fact is that until 1989, only five Kenyans had run under 3:35, and none under 3:33. Three African countries - Morocco, Tanzania, and Somalia had an athlete under 3:33 before Kenya did.

Ding dong Katir is gone wrote:

efq wrote:

E) Sure. Kenyans would be running slower than 3:35 for the 1500 if not for their incredibly sophisticated doping, according to Coevett and other morons like you:

https://www.reuters.com/article/sport-doping-kenya-idINKCN1M7263

Morons like me? Wow. Glad you got that off your chest.

My favourite Kenyan was Augustine Choge, who ran 3:29. I don't think for a moment that he was on EPO and have absolutely no reason to suspect so. My argument is that Canova doesn't believe that EPO assists Kenyans. He was quick to defend Katir just the same. It's ostrich fodder.

I apologize profusely for putting you on the same level as Coevett.

When it comes to what Canova said, it wasn't exactly that EPO doesn't assist Kenyans.

He has said several times that he believes that EPO doping doesn't provide any advantage for Kenyans living and training (well) at altitude.

101701 wrote:

Somebody needs to let The Athlete Special know this!

So he will be running 3:35 and not placing anywhere?

Coe would have had the most to gain with EPO, considering that he had tremendous speed but worse endurance than many of the best 1500m runners. Of course, maybe he gained what he had from blood doping.

Well, in 1968, Kenya had an athlete with pacing run 3:34.8 at 7,000 feet altitude.

xczvzxcv wrote:

Well, in 1968, Kenya had an athlete with pacing run 3:34.8 at 7,000 feet altitude.

Yep, Keino who was having a terrible season, collapsed in the 10,000m a couple of days before, was seriously ill in hospital, climbed out of his bed against doctor's advice and literally ran to the stadium and made the starting line with seconds to spare, then ran what many consider to be the equivalent of a sea-level 3:26 (in 1968!) and never broke 3:36 again, and was recently charged serious financial fraud (against young Kenyan athletes) but got off after corrupt Kenyan politicians intervened.

Proves so much.

Bilbo Baggins the Fourth wrote:

Congratulations on having the courage to post under your regular handle.

How many studies show that EPO makes a massive difference, and how many studies show that it makes no or little difference to athletic performance?

Stop pretending at last to have the backing of science on your side. You're an autistic outsider who is going against the near universal tide of scientific opinion. This is why WADA spends so many resources on detecting the illegal PED EPO. Because the science says it works. Oh, and there's the obvious evidence of the eyes that it works when we see guys running 3:27 every week on non-Mondo tracks and old spikes in the brief period there was no testing, and then almost never again until 30 years later and super spikes and 2nd generation MONDO.

That is rich — “Bilbo Baggins” thanking me for posting under my regular handle.

Remind me again which scientists have brought 3:38 runners 9 second gains over 1500m *entirely* due to EPO?

Ding dong Katir is gone wrote:

D) Kenyas are very FOOLISH for taking EPO, wihch accounts for 12% of their AAFs.

No argument here. I think any runner is foolish for taking EPO.

Altitude training is similarly scientifically proven and “legal”.

Coevett et al.

The 'scientist' Rekrunner who believes it's proven that EPO doesn't work because the northern Mongolians didn't improve their times during the EPO era, and it would be racist to believe that there was a greater doping problem in Kenya or Morocco than Northern Mongolia.

The 'scientist' Rekrunner who belives a LetsRun forum poll proves that El G was clean.

The non-aspergic individual who thinks that as no scientist has been able, or rather bothered, to 'prove' that every 0.01 seconds of a doping athlete's improvement is due to EPO, proves that EPO doesn't work.

I don't have any connection with Katir, and never met him in my life. But I can't accept the widespread idea that, because his origin is maroccan (we know there was a problem of doping there), his Country is Spain (also Spain had some doping problem in the past), automatically he must be doped "for association".

For my experience, what he did can be ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE in clean way, with the right talent and the right training. I don't know anything about his training, and can't evaluate his talent only watching in TV his races, but if this can't give me the certainty that he is clean, this lack of elements can't make me suspect he "must" be doped, because his improvement and his performances.

About the researches sponsored and ordered by WADA, the problem is that all those researchers don't know anything about athletics and training. They THINK to know, but NEVER had the will, the opportunity or the interest to STUDY the effects of training.

When we see that athletes having the level of Hct at 39.7 and 52.5 can achieve the SAME result in the SAME event (and these are REAL data about some of the best in the world), we can't give too much importance to that data. An easy fact to think : Hct is the product of the number of eritrocytes (RBC) per their volume (MCV). This means that an athlete can have 45 of Hct because has 4,500 RBC with MCV 100, or because has 5,500 RBC with MCV 82. Do you really think that those 2 types of Hct can have the same effect, and works in the same way in the body ?

And if some athlete can win WCh in steeple with 39.7 of Hct (Kenyan male), or Olympic marathon (always with 39.7), when some other can run 3'32" with a value of 52.5, WHERE IS THE OTHER FACTOR THAT CAN COMPENSATE THE DIFFERENCE ?

Nobody deny the fact that the assumption of EPO can increase the ability to transport Oxygen. The question is : Are we sure this is a fundamental factor for improving performances, or there is something else, maybe connected with the physiological variations provoked by hard and proper training in regime of hypoxia. that are absolutely individual ?

Why, for example, after almost 3 months of training in altitude with Chinese Team in Duoba (2400m) before the Asian Games 2014, when I had the possibility to do basic blood tests EVERY WEEK for controlling the development of many values (including MCV, PLT, cortisol and testosterone), the athletes that improved a lot in 800m (from 2'07" till 1'59"48) and 5000/10000m (15'12" and 31'53" from 15'55" and 33'08") COMPETED WITH LEVELS OF HB AND HCT LOWER THAN BEFORE GOING IN ALTITUDE, while other athletes showing a big improvemnt of their values were not able to better their PB ?

Too many situations there are in the REAL training, that researchers don't consider, and don't want to study, because maybe too much complicated and/or expensive, remaining at the end in the same protocols, with the same low level of subjects, only for writing some article that has the only result to create fake ideas in everybody who doesn't follow in professional way the top athletes in their discipline.

Bilbo Baggins the Fourth wrote:

The 'scientist' Rekrunner who believes it's proven that EPO doesn't work because the northern Mongolians didn't improve their times during the EPO era, and it would be racist to believe that there was a greater doping problem in Kenya or Morocco than Northern Mongolia.

The 'scientist' Rekrunner who belives a LetsRun forum poll proves that El G was clean.

The non-aspergic individual who thinks that as no scientist has been able, or rather bothered, to 'prove' that every 0.01 seconds of a doping athlete's improvement is due to EPO, proves that EPO doesn't work.

You said “the near universal tide of scientific opinion” and 3:38 runners “improving 9 seconds” “entirely due to EPO”.

Scientists tend to say their conclusions in EPO studies cannot be applied to elite athletes and elite performances.

Which scientists have brought 3:38 runners 9 second gains over 1500m *entirely* due to EPO?

Just because Katir only cut ~1 second from 2019-2020 doesn’t mean he was close to his max. There’s nothing unusual about an athlete showing little to no improvement in one year but still running faster in the future. I believe Katir also transitioned from being a student to a full-time athlete this season, so it’s reasonable to assume his times would have dropped even without drugs. Why are you so keen to attribute all of his improvement to EPO?

Most of what you wrote about El G is nonsense. If he was only a 3:34 guy his records would have been taken down years ago. I have no doubt he doped, but to suggest that anybody with a modicum of talent at the elite level can hop on the sauce and become a world beater is asinine and not borne out in reality. Just look at who’s competing today and you’ll find maybe two guys that could possibly scare El G’s records. But I guess they could run 3:18 if they full throttled, because modern testing is so great that it’s obviously too hard for them to dope like El G. /s

Very generically and anecdotally about 3% seems to be about what EPO ‘buys’ at elite level, for elite Caucasian males.

Not mentioning any names but check out the performance profiles of a few elite Spaniards who were at their peak in and around 1998/2005 – look what happened around 2001 when EPO tests started and there are a few who lost about 3% which doesn’t seem attributable to age/injury/lifestyle change. Also, somewhat conspiratorially, a non Spaniard in this era spent many months training and living with a crew of Spanish elites in this time span. All very open and candid, apparently, until one training camp when the non Spaniard , against the trend, was not invited. The squad came back and inexplicably had gained, by this athlete’s estimation, about 1.5 sec per 400m – close to 3%. Of one who got caught in this era – Alberto Garcia had a solid 13.20 norm and then changed the peak to 13.02/04 – do the math.

Many Moroccans down the ages (either running for Morocco or whichever nation they have moved to stain) have at some stage moved from a level to a +3% level.

Katir maybe doesn’t sit neatly in anything so formulaic in that other performance-related changes impacted him over the timescale of his big advance, and for whatever reason the 13.50 5000PB clearly didn’t represent his optimum performance at the time he set it

Bilbo Baggins the Fourth wrote:

xczvzxcv wrote:

Well, in 1968, Kenya had an athlete with pacing run 3:34.8 at 7,000 feet altitude.

Yep, Keino who was having a terrible season, collapsed in the 10,000m a couple of days before, was seriously ill in hospital, climbed out of his bed against doctor's advice and literally ran to the stadium and made the starting line with seconds to spare, then ran what many consider to be the equivalent of a sea-level 3:26 (in 1968!) and never broke 3:36 again, and was recently charged serious financial fraud (against young Kenyan athletes) but got off after corrupt Kenyan politicians intervened.

Proves so much.

Good to have you back, Coevett! What went wrong for you the last 10 days?

Who believes that Keino's time from Mexico was worth 9 seconds faster?

dopergang wrote:

Most of what you wrote about El G is nonsense. If he was only a 3:34 guy his records would have been taken down years ago. I have no doubt he doped, but to suggest that anybody with a modicum of talent at the elite level can hop on the sauce and become a world beater is asinine and not borne out in reality. Just look at who’s competing today and you’ll find maybe two guys that could possibly scare El G’s records. But I guess they could run 3:18 if they full throttled, because modern testing is so great that it’s obviously too hard for them to dope like El G. /s

You are worse than the one you are criticizing.

If you don't have any proof about anything you claim just shut it and dont play "the doctor".