runners world wrote:
Ok, Let's list their achievement
Emma Couburn - Olympic bronze , Worlds gold, and Worlds Silver.
Courtney Frerichs - Worlds Silver, American record, World Silver, and American record (the second time with sub 9).
For me, Courtney Frerichs's achievement is better and she is the best Steepler ever in USA
# Frerichs is the steeple queen
Don’t forget 9-0 comparing US steeple titles
rhojo wrote:
rhimby wrote:
And is false. WC medals are overrated. Olympics are worth twice as much.
You want to assign point values? Oly medals worth twice as much?
Coburn 3+2+2 Frerichs 4+2 Coburn still wins
The AR is worth at least 2 points, so Frerichs wins actually :/ (add in another +1 for going sub 9 too)
te5n1k wrote:
rhojo wrote:
WC Gold, WC Silver, Oly Bronze > WC silver, Oly Silver
surely an 857 AR is worth something in this equation
Yep, which is why rhojo is even dumber than me, only counting medals.
c7runner7 wrote:
westsouthrunner wrote:
I sure hope people start thinking like this when they try to insinuate kipchoge or Cheptegei are better runners than Bekele.
Frerichs can just argue she's better then coburn. But coburn has accomplished more as of now
Maybe you’re a young cycling or swimming fan that just heard about running but Kipchoge isn’t exactly a one year wonder.
He won a word title in 2003 and 18 years later, won Olympic gold. That statistic alone is insane. Not to mention, most would consider him the best marathoner 2014-present. I mean, he literally didn’t lose after that 2013 2nd place finish in a world record race (until London last year).
Also has the WR, broke 2 hours (almost twice), and 2 Olympic Golds, an Olympic silver, Olympic bronze. and 8 World Marathon Major wins.
Only including the 5k/10k, Bekele easily takes it, but for total career, Kipchoge has placed Top 5 at a World/Oly Champs or won a WMM almost every year for 18 years. How many athletes in any sport remain that close to the top for 18 years?? You can make arguments for Bekele, but recency bias isn’t applicable here.
Yeah Bekele is Clearly superior to Kipchoge. Bekele and then Farah pushed Kipchoge to the roads. And they are all somewhat around the same age. Kipchoge on the roads is equivalent to Bekele in XC. Bekele on the track equivalent to no one. It is impressive that Kipchoge has won those championships that far apart.
And for the "a WMM every year". He runs only like Berlin and London essentially. I still wish he ran some other courses. Also the fishy Rio results where select athletes had vaporfly's. It's not as if every WMM field features the very best competition every single time. Eve. The "world championship marathon field is usually weak" Not to diminish all those London victories because it's still insane. But I don't equate the WMM dominance as a 1:1 comparison to The track dominance of Bekele when Kipchoge was in alot of those races.
rhimby wrote:
rhimby wrote:
This hurt my brain :/
And is false. WC medals are overrated. Olympics are worth twice as much.
There is literally nothing different from a world championship final and a Olympic final. The competition makes the race not the name of the meet lol
Emma was the best steeplechase in the USA for quite a few years. And kudos to her! But currently, Courtney has taken over this spot based on her silver performance at the Olympics and now today's 2nd place American record and breaking 9 minutes. Who knows, maybe Emma will come back and regain her #1. But for now it's Courtney.
westsouthrunner wrote:
rhimby wrote:
And is false. WC medals are overrated. Olympics are worth twice as much.
There is literally nothing different from a world championship final and a Olympic final. The competition makes the race not the name of the meet lol
Except that the Olympics are less frequent and more important for sponsorship, etc so the competition is almost always more intense.
Really? So the people who win events at Pre count the same as the Olympics if the competition was the same? I doubt that many people would agree with you.
Courtne Frerichs holds, the fastest and second fastest American time. Plus she got an Olympic silver and a world silver.
It's a very close call, but Courtney is the best American steepler ever.
Dr. Fowci wrote:
Really? So the people who win events at Pre count the same as the Olympics if the competition was the same? I doubt that many people would agree with you.
Ok obviously I was referring to the two championship meets. One is every other year and the other is every 4 years. But it's the same people competing for the same spots. No difference. I can say the Olympics gets more views maybe. But it didn't even seem like it this year if I am being honest
Emma is the pioneer and the best of an era. Courtney is the best of the current era and fastest American ever— hopefully she can add some more medals to her resume. Yes, they are close in age but there’s clearly a changing of the guard happening here. It will happen again with someone new. Like Haile, Bekele, Mo & Cheptagai, they each dominated an era.
Somebody posted that Coburn is the better athlete. That's not even close to true. Just the opposite. In fact the gap in raw ability and versatility is what has always allowed Frerichs the opportunity to close the gap quickly, despite the head to head record.
Coburn is a plodder. Her tempo never varies nor her technique. Same robotic arm swing lap after lap. Never an injection of speed. She is totally incapable of making a quick evaluation of how the race is unfolding, and adjusting her strategy to fit.
That Tokyo Olympic final was doomed to disaster of an East African sweep if Coburn had her way, even in top form. They were on 9:16 pace and Emma Coburn wasn't going to do a darn thing about it. It would never occur to her. She has always been tremendously consistent but dependent on others to collapse around her. Other than that early Diamond League victory when nobody in the field took her seriously, Coburn will not risk an aggressive solo venture to the front in international company. Frerichs essentially embarrassed Coburn into that gold medal in 2017. Frerichs took the lead first, darting forward at the barrier around the bend on the final lap. Only when Coburn saw that another American had passed her did the pride kick in and Coburn rushed forward to join Frerichs. Minus Frerichs in that frontward position I don't think Coburn makes that move at all. It is not her history. She is always content to cede to whomever the lead East African is during the late going.
Frerichs demonstrated great versatility and guts in that 2017 race then seemingly shelved it for 4 years. I'll never understand it. Following that race she literally was used as a pacer in a Diamond League 3000. I couldn't believe what I was looking at.
I assumed Frerichs would use the London example as lesson that she needed to get into shape to repeatedly accelerate the steeplechase during the pivotal late laps. It didn't happen until Tokyo. Maybe the Chepkoech dominance was demoralizing until recently. That is understandable. No way to go to the front if she is there, and holding.
Regardless, Frerichs has many more gears than Coburn and exponentially greater tactical variance. She lacked Coburn's confidence. IMO, that is the trigger to the lopsided head to head numbers.
I posted a few days ago that Jeruto might be motivated after missing the Olympics, and drag Frerichs with her to sub-9:00.00. That's exactly what happened. Also, I posted this week that Frerichs could save several seconds merely by not stutter stepping to every barrier. If you watch today's race it is the best Frerichs has ever done in that regard, I counted only three barriers in which she used her standard method of slowing noticeably and chopping several steps.
It takes energy and saps energy to stutter those steps. Frerichs has plenty more upside if she continues to take the barriers calmly in stride.
Disgusting that today's race wasn't within the network window. The only version I found so far doesn't even include commentary.
This post was removed.
Awsi Dooger wrote:
Somebody posted that Coburn is the better athlete. That's not even close to true. Just the opposite. In fact the gap in raw ability and versatility is what has always allowed Frerichs the opportunity to close the gap quickly, despite the head to head record.
Coburn is a plodder. Her tempo never varies nor her technique. Same robotic arm swing lap after lap. Never an injection of speed. She is totally incapable of making a quick evaluation of how the race is unfolding, and adjusting her strategy to fit.
That Tokyo Olympic final was doomed to disaster of an East African sweep if Coburn had her way, even in top form. They were on 9:16 pace and Emma Coburn wasn't going to do a darn thing about it. It would never occur to her. She has always been tremendously consistent but dependent on others to collapse around her. Other than that early Diamond League victory when nobody in the field took her seriously, Coburn will not risk an aggressive solo venture to the front in international company. Frerichs essentially embarrassed Coburn into that gold medal in 2017. Frerichs took the lead first, darting forward at the barrier around the bend on the final lap. Only when Coburn saw that another American had passed her did the pride kick in and Coburn rushed forward to join Frerichs. Minus Frerichs in that frontward position I don't think Coburn makes that move at all. It is not her history. She is always content to cede to whomever the lead East African is during the late going.
Frerichs demonstrated great versatility and guts in that 2017 race then seemingly shelved it for 4 years. I'll never understand it. Following that race she literally was used as a pacer in a Diamond League 3000. I couldn't believe what I was looking at.
I assumed Frerichs would use the London example as lesson that she needed to get into shape to repeatedly accelerate the steeplechase during the pivotal late laps. It didn't happen until Tokyo. Maybe the Chepkoech dominance was demoralizing until recently. That is understandable. No way to go to the front if she is there, and holding.
Regardless, Frerichs has many more gears than Coburn and exponentially greater tactical variance. She lacked Coburn's confidence. IMO, that is the trigger to the lopsided head to head numbers.
I posted a few days ago that Jeruto might be motivated after missing the Olympics, and drag Frerichs with her to sub-9:00.00. That's exactly what happened. Also, I posted this week that Frerichs could save several seconds merely by not stutter stepping to every barrier. If you watch today's race it is the best Frerichs has ever done in that regard, I counted only three barriers in which she used her standard method of slowing noticeably and chopping several steps.
It takes energy and saps energy to stutter those steps. Frerichs has plenty more upside if she continues to take the barriers calmly in stride.
Disgusting that today's race wasn't within the network window. The only version I found so far doesn't even include commentary.
Frerichs peak has been a bit faster than Coburns peak. Nobody would be too ssurprised to see Coburn sub 9 within the next year. You're discrediting Coburn a bit. You said she was EMBARRASSED INTO A GOLD MEDAL?????Frehrichs has never won a top race vs the best in the world, Coburn has. Coburn isn't just bending over and handing it the the East Africans either. How about Coburns first diamond league win? She front ran the Africans thought she might be rabbiting and never caught her.
Professional track and field is cutthroat . You’re only as good as your last race. Courtney is the best American steeplechaser right now, female or male.
2022 Season will see this ranking :
1. Courtney
2. Colleen
3. Jenny S
4. Emma
Expect Jenny to return to Steeple to prolong her career .
Pre Saturday watcher wrote:
Can't believe no one's mentioned that Frerichs belongs to the same running club as Houlihan. Her performances are tainted just by association.
This. Burrito Track Club sisters strike again
Peacock has the whole 2 hours for replay.
Blue Ribbon . wrote:
2022 Season will see this ranking :
1. Courtney
2. Colleen
3. Jenny S
4. Emma
Expect Jenny to return to Steeple to prolong her career .
0/10
Troll equivalent of weak tea.
Pre Saturday watcher wrote:
Can't believe no one's mentioned that Frerichs belongs to the same running club as Houlihan. Her performances are tainted just by association.
But Coburn is 100% doping. More suspicious than Frerichs for sure.