Is Shohei Ohtani already better than Babe Ruth?

carmine9 wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

Sally, the ONLY area you have consistently shown not to be a moron has to do with baseball, but man, you are falling down here. Snap out of it.

35 home runs and 100 RBI in a season are Hall of Fame stats if extrapolated out to an entire career. You just can't legitimately mention Hall of Fame based on one good season. LOTS of players hit 50+ homeruns who aren't in the Hall of Fame (and shouldn't be):

George Foster

Brady Anderson

Cecil Fielder

Roger Maris

And lots more

First one I checked, Cecil Fielder, inducted into HOH in 2012.

Uhh, no.

carmine9 wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

Sally, the ONLY area you have consistently shown not to be a moron has to do with baseball, but man, you are falling down here. Snap out of it.

35 home runs and 100 RBI in a season are Hall of Fame stats if extrapolated out to an entire career. You just can't legitimately mention Hall of Fame based on one good season. LOTS of players hit 50+ homeruns who aren't in the Hall of Fame (and shouldn't be):

George Foster

Brady Anderson

Cecil Fielder

Roger Maris

And lots more

First one I checked, Cecil Fielder, inducted into HOH in 2012.

Cecil Fielder is NOT in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Not sure what "HOH" is.

Flagpole wrote:

carmine9 wrote:

First one I checked, Cecil Fielder, inducted into HOH in 2012.

Cecil Fielder is NOT in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Not sure what "HOH" is.

You must have missed this part of his profile: "Cecil Fielder was inducted in the Kinston Professional Baseball Hall of Fame in 1994." ☺

If this freak athlete isn't 'Hall of Fame talent' then who is more talented? A long way to go, but he is incredible!

Not every player but the level of play at the time Ruth played was pretty low. That's why most of the extremes of records are from those times.

There were fewer teams, so much less marginal talent needed fo fill in all the rosters. Also, there was less competition for the best athletes from other professional sports leagues, e-sports, etc..

I'm pretty sure no one, myself included, knows what the Kinston Professional Baseball Hall of Fame is.

How many home runs would Bonds have without the steroids? How many home runs would Ruth have with steroids and weight training? Ruth was so far beyond the best of all time as a batter and pitcher combined that it is a joke even to raise a comparison. As a batter, only Bonds compares, but that's a roided up unnatural player against a player who dominated his era like a colossus and changed the game forever.

We kind of know how many home runs Bonds would have hit without steroids. The steroid "era" began in roughly 1998. From 1986 to 1998, the beginning of the steroid era, Bonds had already hit 411 homes runs. He did not get huge until after that. Mark McGuire hit 49 home runs as a rookie when he was still scrawny. That was a mlb record until Aaron Judge come around many years later. Both guys obviously benefited from steroids but were elite home run hitters without them.

You always go with dominance of era when trying to compare athletes. Hell high school kids we will never hear of would smoke Jesse Owens in a 100m.

Nobody today will make the impact on baseball that Ruth made.

I'm pretty sure that was "veronica's" point.

He is interesting in that he is starting-level good at both being a pitcher and a position player. So far he hasn't shown that EITHER one of those things is at a level that will put him in the Hall of Fame.

He had a great season at the plate last year at age 27, his first season that was even better than very good. So far this season he is doing about as well at the plate for this first half as he did for the full season last year (he's behind a bit with HR pace though, and he won't hit 40 if the pace stays the same).

While he IS a power hitter, his career batting average is .264. That's not typical HOF level.

I found a list of the "15 worst Hall of Fame" members. Here are some from that list with relevant stats:

Lou Brock, .293

Ralph Kiner, .279

Phil Rizzuto...not even in for his ability at the plate, .273

Typically, a guy has a higher batting average at age 28 then they do when they call it a career, because usually there are a couple of tail off years in there.

Fred McGriff isn't in the HOF, and he has a .285 career batting average...to go with 493 HRs and 1550 RBIs that Ohtani won't reach. McGriff averaged 102 RBIs per 162 games over his entire career. Ohtani has an average of 99 right now in the peak of his career.

A far as pitching goes, he's even further away there. He's a starting pitcher with 21 career wins. Meh.

He's Dale Murphy without the MVP awards. Oh, and Murphy's career batting average was .265, higher than Ohtani's.

Maybe Ohtani will hit .280 with 35 HRs per season from now until he's 40. That would do it. HIGHLY unlikely though, and there's no reason to believe that will happen. Unless he starts doping, he has until age 35 before he starts to really tail off.

1. If Babe was born in this era he would be a star in this era.

2. If 1920's Babe showed up to Yankee Stadium for the Yankees next game in 2022, no he would not be good. Pretty sure they didn't have bullpen pitchers coming in for 1 out or inning throwing 100 miles an hour left or right handed depending on the situation. He literally would have never seen half the pitches threw to him that game. Also goes without saying the velocity on average would be much much faster for all pitches.

#1 is my opinion, others are free to disagree.. #2 seems pretty obvious to me.

Good points, however you're not comparing apples with apples. The two way takes away a little from both areas. If he has longevity, 100% he ends up a hall of famer. His pitching skills are improving rapidly.

What kind of longevity? He's a HUGE guy at 6'4". MLB baseball players are USUALLY on a steep decline by age 35. Bigger guys fall even sooner or faster.

Repeat MVP if he keeps at current pace and not fall off.

2.44 ERA in the AL and 35HR is more dominant overall than last yr.

We will see. One of my favorite players ever, George Foster, had a couple seasons better than Ohtani's last two (at the plate of course) at age 28 and 29. He hit 30 HRs at age 30 and then never again above 30 HRs. It is more likely that Ohtani will have a similar fall off than not.

If ANY player at age 27-28 who hits 35+ HRs doesn't "fall off" they will make the Hall of Fame. The problem is, the vast majority DO fall off, and Ohtani had his breakout season at too old an age to assume he will make it. He will have to have a herculean rest of career up to age 40 if he is to make it.

Who's better Paavo Nurmi or Joshua Cheptegei? Perhaps more importantly, who would win in a race?

HOF standards change over time. Chuck Klein, to use one example, had a lifetime BA of .320 and needed to be voted in via the Veteran's committee. That's because a .320 average at the time was very good certainly but not at the top of the game because not only was the pitching worse overall but the method to the madness was very different at the time. Throw in poorer athletes, crappier gloves, less scouting reports, etc. etc. and the definition of a HOFer is going to be very different.