Diamond League Rome 3000m:
Jakob Ingebrigtsen vs Jacob Kiplimo
+ Filip Ingebrigtsen, Yeman Crippa, Stewart McSweyn ...
Diamond League Rome 3000m:
Jakob Ingebrigtsen vs Jacob Kiplimo
+ Filip Ingebrigtsen, Yeman Crippa, Stewart McSweyn ...
Loppas wrote:
KaareV wrote:
How do you know? Documention, please. Not speculations.
That is the problem in East Africa. No documentation. Of the birth date!
No birth certifications, at least not thrusrworthy.
"You need a passport? Ok, when is your date of birth?"
"1. january, nineteen ninety....ehh...two thoussand!"
"Oki doki"
Aha, guilt by association. Ad hominem fallacy. One example: Zakayo could actually prove his age, when he was accused of the same thing. May be you don't have courses in logic where you live? I.e. informal logic - Oki doki
Lofty Goals wrote:
erico1234 wrote:
Bekele did 3.32 and kiplimo is not as fast as him over 1500. Besides some xc medals, what makes kiplimo's resume better than Jakobs?
You can't just throw a "besides" in front of the biggest thing that either of them have accomplished. Kiplimo's 2nd place finish at world XC is better than anything Jakob has done. For comparison, on the same day Jakob was 12th... in the junior race, a race that Kiplimo won 2 years earlier.
THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:
Well Jakob has run his best of 13:02 twice in a championship race and an erratically paced DL race.
To give you a sense of the PBs around him in those races, in London he lost narrowly to an athlete with a 12:45 PB/12:54 SB (Gebrhiwet). In Doha, he misjudged his race but all the athletes ahead of him have run 12:54 or better. Behind him, Nicholas Kimeli ran 12:51 this year. So if Jakob was in 3:30 form last season he as able to put performances that indicated around 12:55-12:57 fitness at worst in a fast race. He's gotten a second plus faster in the 1500, and run some good marks at 2,000 and on the roads. I don't think it'd be aggressive to posit he could run 12:51-12:54 right now.
That's an impressive list of people that Ingebrigsten hasn't beaten. Lets look at some of the runners that Kiplimo has actually beaten:
Geoffrey Kamworor - 58:01 WR in the Half, Reigning XC champ
Selemon Barega - 12:43 in the 5000m, 26:49 in the 10000m
Rhonex Kipruto - 26:50 in the 10000m, 26:24 in the 10km
Selemon Barega again, in a sub 12:50 race.
I'm not saying that Jakob isn't amazing, or that he is guaranteed to have a worse career than Kiplimo, but as it stands right now Kiplimo's resume is better. It is stupid to count speculative results as a reason that Jakob is better, because they're just speculation. If he's been training for the 5000m then Jakob probably can run 12:55 or better this year, but right now we have to live with the fact that he hasn't.
What I think what we can both agree on though is that a race between them this year will be awesome! I'll probably be cheering for Ingebrigsten, but betting on Kiplimo.
You seem quite knowledgeable and rational, but I still disagree with your conclusion. Kiplimo’s finest moments are on par with Ingebrigtsen’s, but I think Jakob has the more complete body of work at this point. If Kiplimo had not been injured in 2019 things might be different—as it is, he didn’t bolster his resume much between March of ‘19 and yesterday. During that time Ingebrigtsen established himself as the #2 1500 runner in the world.
World XC silver is a great achievement, but the European Record at 1500 is better. Keep in mind that Leonard Barsoton (no offense) won World XC silver in 2017. Jakob has run faster than Farah, Cram, Coe, Cacho—everyone from Europe, obviously—that is a grown man’s achievement, no doubt.
Jakob’s 1500/5k double at the 2018 European Championships is enough to offset Kiplimo’s World Jr. XC win, and his European Record 2k offsets Kiplimo’s 26:41* road 10k (*not legal). His fairly convincing recent wins over 1500 in Brussels and Ostrava offset Kiplimo’s surprise fast 5k win yesterday.
They both placed 2nd in their respective specialties at 2018 World Jrs.
Jakob has the “disappointing” double-top-5 finishes at outdoor WCs while Kiplimo was injured.
The fact that Ingebrigtsen has now run under 3:32 9 times is what really does it for me.
I think you’re underrating some of Kiplimo’s accomplishments, but otherwise I don’t really disagree with anything you’re saying. Like you said, Jakob has definitely had a more complete and well rounded career, but imo Kiplimo’s peaks have been a little higher.
World xc can definitely be flukey, especially on last year’s course, but I put a lot of weight on it because he beat Kamworor. I’d still value a track medal more than xc, but right now xc is the only senior medal either of them have to go on.
In terms of track races, 3:28 might be a slightly better time than 12:48, but I’d consider it a toss up because Jacob won his race whereas Ingebrigsten got 2nd. And giving Ingebrigsten extra credit for a European record is unfair because Kiplimo has to measure himself against the much tougher African records. Kiplimo’s 12:48 would’ve broken the European record if that’s where he was born.
On the other hand, Jakob has a solid world championship showing and a lot more good-but-not-great performances than Kiplimo.
At this point in their careers who you think is better is mostly about what you value rather than any sort of rigorous logical comparison. Fortunately they’re still young and have a lot of racing ahead of them. I imagine that in 5 years it will be pretty clear who is the superior runner.
Typical American wrote:
3:28 is better than 12:48
Jacob Ingebrigtsen is better.
According to Jack Daniels 3:28 is only worth a 12:56
Lofty Goals wrote: giving Ingebrigsten extra credit for a European record is unfair because Kiplimo has to measure himself against the much tougher African records. Kiplimo’s 12:48 would’ve broken the European record if that’s where he was born.
Fair point.
Lofty Goals wrote:
At this point in their careers who you think is better is mostly about what you value rather than any sort of rigorous logical comparison. Fortunately they’re still young and have a lot of racing ahead of them. I imagine that in 5 years it will be pretty clear who is the superior runner.
Well said.
Old is as old does wrote:
Typical American wrote:
3:28 is better than 12:48
Jacob Ingebrigtsen is better.
According to Jack Daniels 3:28 is only worth a 12:56
Indeed, and a 3:28 at Monaco is likely not even worth that. Look at Mo Farah. Some of you clowns would have us believe that Mo’s best track performance is his 3:28 at Monaco. Well we know that Mo was not a 1500m champion and he was not an all time great at 1500m, much like Jakob, but they make all time lists along with everyone and their brother at Monaco. Many of you are blinded by the 3:28 at Monaco. Kiplimo is the better runner, but Jakob is very good also. IF Jakob could break 3:30 (not in Monaco), this would at least put him in the conversation as a challenger to Kiplimo as best young Jacob/Jakob.
Have you ever thought why people run fast 1500m in Monaco? Maybe its because its the one meet a year where the athletes agrees to go for the fastest possible time rather than just a victory, and great money bonuses for doing so. Last year Jakobs fastest run was in Lausanne btw...
need 3000m as Olympic event wrote:
Heres Jonny wrote:
Jacob Kiplimo just ran 12:48 at age 19 and is obviously a better runner than Ingebrigtsen. Let us celebrate these two young stars of the sport. Maybe they would have a good battle at 3000m.
I would love to see 3000m as an Olympic event. Three-thousand metres is the longest distance tv networks may be willing to go sans commercials. Aged out 1500m gals & guys versus true 3000m-5000m athletes, it would be exciting. We need to dump 10000m A.S.A.P. What were they thinking in 1912? Twenty-five laps on 400m track is awful television. 1500m to 10000m, the race starts with 900m to go.
In 1912, television hadnt been invented.
erico123 wrote:
Have you ever thought why people run fast 1500m in Monaco? Maybe its because its the one meet a year where the athletes agrees to go for the fastest possible time rather than just a victory, and great money bonuses for doing so. Last year Jakobs fastest run was in Lausanne btw...
Right because the rest of the year they do not try to run fast. It is almost as if the other tracks have speed bumps but at Monaco it is smooth sailing.
Heres Jonny wrote:
Indeed, and a 3:28 at Monaco is likely not even worth that. Look at Mo Farah. Some of you clowns would have us believe that Mo’s best track performance is his 3:28 at Monaco. Well we know that Mo was not a 1500m champion and he was not an all time great at 1500m, much like Jakob, but they make all time lists along with everyone and their brother at Monaco. Many of you are blinded by the 3:28 at Monaco. Kiplimo is the better runner, but Jakob is very good also. IF Jakob could break 3:30 (not in Monaco), this would at least put him in the conversation as a challenger to Kiplimo as best young Jacob/Jakob.
This Monaco stuff is silliness. Yes, it’s a fast track, but there are many fast tracks. Jakob ran very fast at 2,000 as well in Oslo. He’s run 3:30 a few times in races that were more conservatively paced. Mo Farah’s 1500s were actual time trials where he went flat-out. That was rare for him. He just didn’t do that in his prime at 5,000 or even 3,000. He coulda, shoulda ran 12:45. Jakob’s 3:28 was also competitive and he wasn’t towed to it like Mo’s. It’s a very good time that backs up Jakob’s competitive record of being no.2 in the world at 1,500. Kiplimo’s resume is missing track performances. That might be a matter of time, but Jakob deserves credit for his consistency and solid if not medal-winning performances in Doha. If Kiplimo beats Jakob convincingly at 3,000 then he’s got a much stronger case.
The IAAF tables rate Ingebrigtsen's 3:28.68 as 1264 points. Kiplimo's 12:48.63 as 1252 points. So Ingebrigtsen's mark is slightly better according to their tables.
It surprises me how much letsrun has been sleeping on Kiplimo. I was not even aware he was in the race until it happened. It was promoted as a time trial for Barega. But Kiplimo obviously should have been considered a serious threat.
As for the thread title, I feel like Kiplimo's world XC performances eclipse what Jakob has done so far. But it is very close. It would be nice if Kiplimo raced more than 2-3 time per year.
Some of you keep saying Jakob is #2 in the world at 1500m. This is speculative. There is not enough evidence for that assertion to hold water at this juncture. Does anyone think that Jakob is a likely silver medalist next year? Of course some of you do, but it is unlikely.
Heres Jonny wrote:
OK so of all the 1500m races run in Monaco, Ingebrigtsen has the 12th fastest performance whereas Kiplimo has the 20th fastest 5000m performance done ANYWHERE. Does that statistic mean anything to you?
If you understood math a little better, you'd realize 1500 runners run more fast races than 5000 runners. That's why going by fastest performance is deceptive - most of the fastest 1500 performances were done by the same few people, some of whom also did it at Monaco. In the past 10 years, there's only 3 who've ran faster than Jakob, and all of them did it at Monaco every time. But there's 5 in the past 10 years who ran faster than this new guy on non-Monaco tracks, plus Cheptegei. So this Monaco stuff is a red herring.
Heres Jonny wrote:
Some of you keep saying Jakob is #2 in the world at 1500m. This is speculative. There is not enough evidence for that assertion to hold water at this juncture. Does anyone think that Jakob is a likely silver medalist next year? Of course some of you do, but it is unlikely.
he certainly is #2 in the world at 1500m. if he is not, than who is, smart guy?
#1 doesn't always win gold. #2 doesn't always win silver, etc. etc. etc.
Heres Jonny wrote:
Some of you keep saying Jakob is #2 in the world at 1500m. This is speculative. There is not enough evidence for that assertion to hold water at this juncture. Does anyone think that Jakob is a likely silver medalist next year? Of course some of you do, but it is unlikely.
Good point. Jakob is continuously improving and can be world number one and big favorite for gold in tokyo.
Jakob has already raced kiplimo in a 5k in Tampere, Finland.
Kiplimo in the yellow jersey.
Bad Wigins wrote:
Heres Jonny wrote:
OK so of all the 1500m races run in Monaco, Ingebrigtsen has the 12th fastest performance whereas Kiplimo has the 20th fastest 5000m performance done ANYWHERE. Does that statistic mean anything to you?
If you understood math a little better, you'd realize 1500 runners run more fast races than 5000 runners. That's why going by fastest performance is deceptive - most of the fastest 1500 performances were done by the same few people, some of whom also did it at Monaco. In the past 10 years, there's only 3 who've ran faster than Jakob, and all of them did it at Monaco every time. But there's 5 in the past 10 years who ran faster than this new guy on non-Monaco tracks, plus Cheptegei. So this Monaco stuff is a red herring.
You start out by saying one should not compare number of performances at 1500m vs 5000m. Then you proceed to do just that. Then you admit defeat by asserting that Monaco is a red herring, which is what you choose to call an argument you cannot refute.
Semiler wrote:
Kiplimo in the yellow jersey.
https://youtu.be/CgiK_nRiVKA
It is a nice race but of course Kiplimo and Barega are now on another level at 5000m than Jacob, but in a slowish race Jakob could kick with them. Jakob has not shown he can run 12:55 or 12:50 yet. He could be close to 12:55 now.