Killian Jornet: VK10K

I don't doubt the VK10K times. A regular of my weekly training was a hard hill session for about 20mins followed by a few miles jog back to the track and a mile or two on the track followed by the weekly club track tempo, anywhere between 30-45 as we were training for a local 10miler. It's a serious workout believe me.

Having raced Kilian in Chamonix and Dolomites in 2014, I know he can crank those 10k times. Anyone (with a sub 30min 10k) who says he hasn't raced this track 10k or that road 10k to prove he can do sub 30min should take a trip Cham and race between Argentiere and Chamonix at over 1200m in altitude and come back to me when they pick their lungs up off the ground when they try sub 5 pace. And anyway sub 30min is soft for 10k if you're a wannabe elite. That aside Luis Alberto has beaten him over a Pikes Peak type distance and ascent effort on Transvulcania and everyone knows his marathon and 10k times but he isn't even close to the technical descender that many euro mountain men are. Kilian isn't the best at that by a long way, something he admits himself.

As for the question Sage poses, Matt and his outlier. There is no question, it is a nonsense. I have been up Pikes Peak. I have raced and won many mountain races and of a similar length and ascent (and longer and higher) and there is NO WAY you can drop a time that much in one specific year when your regular results (over the same course) as an elite athlete are pretty similar either side of that one outlier. Even special sweeties won't get you that much of a performance improvement. Course was either cut or no top was made, very simple. As a comparison just show me a similar differential by any athlete on any major mountain race anywhere. Sierre Zinal (a glorified trail race) is as close as you get and no one (Meija, Wyatt) has had those wild variations.

Listen, Matt Carpenter is still alive. Although a recluse autistic, we should have Sage interview him on his VO2 Max Productions YouTube Channel. It would probably get close to 30-40k views (or more).

Sage, you'd be astute enough to sniff out if they went to the top or not... if there was a course change.. if Carpenter is hiding anything. Also, there are hundreds of former participants alive from that year. I would start with 2nd and 3rd place finishers.

Matt Carpenter may be the Gerry Lindgren of the Trail world, but go find out from the source.

Sage, obviously you are self-coached, as Kilian is also, and everyone learns what works with their own bodies over time, but have you ever considered just copying some of the (running) workouts that Kilian does? Like, for example, this vertical km/10km hard workout? (I know Kilian's Google spreadsheet workout journal was circulated and it was up to date last time I peeked at it -- mostly regular runs like most people, but then some interesting stuff like this) Maybe there is something to be gained and learned, but even if not, it would make for an interesting vlog post, like a "mimicking Kilian" series.

Harambe wrote:

3200 feet in 1.4 miles is crazy. That's like 40+ % grade if my math is right.

Would have been sooo easy if we just stuck to the original 1km (which equals 1,000m) over 2.25km (equalling---you guessed it, 2,250m)

Don't even need the back of an envelope for that...which is exactly 40%

How does a Killian VK/10km thread turn into scepticism about Matt Carpenter at Pikes Peak.

I'll tell you:

"If MC never did it, then KJ is the best, and therefore , SC is better than you think".

Seriously , give yourself an uppercut, you are supposed professional, you do not see other pros carrying on whistling like that.

Smead has mentioned looking for the best shortcuts. He won PP in the 70's, Do not know exactly when they started trying to make it a closed course.

The LT 100 course is easier. faster now than when Carpenter set the record. They modified the course for the helicopter crash (and other reasons) The more recent courses have more smooth wide road and less narrow rocky trail. Also less vertical gain and descent.

But they also changed the Leadville 100 course in 2017 also I believe:https://www.leadvilleraceseries.com/2017/06/course-change-announcement-2017-lt100-run/ The new section/route heading into Winfield makes it about 1.5 miles longer (in total). Rob ran like 15:50 in 2018. I think Kilian could smash that record as well although obviously Hardrock is a course more suited for him. But to answer "I am Sam" (why don't you post under your real full name name?).: I do think Kilian is the GOAT, you're right. That is what is relevant here. And if you follow me you know I'm interested in seeking the Truth. I'm adamant about clean sport and people not taking shortcuts (switchback cutting if it is against the rules that is). I also consider myself a science guy with an eye for data. Others agree that that 3:16 Pikes time is out of this world.

this and this wrote:

Smead has mentioned looking for the best shortcuts. He won PP in the 70's, Do not know exactly when they started trying to make it a closed course.

The LT 100 course is easier. faster now than when Carpenter set the record. They modified the course for the helicopter crash (and other reasons) The more recent courses have more smooth wide road and less narrow rocky trail. Also less vertical gain and descent.

S. Canaday wrote:

.But to answer "I am Sam" (why don't you post under your real full name name?).: I do think Kilian is the GOAT, you're right. That is what is relevant here.

And if you follow me you know I'm interested in seeking the Truth. I'm adamant about clean sport and people not taking shortcuts (switchback cutting if it is against the rules that is). I also consider myself a science guy with an eye for data. Others agree that that 3:16 Pikes time is out of this world.

Likewise, I have a science background. But what is the relevance to it in the KJ thread.

By all means start a Pikes Peak, Matt Carpenter thread, I am interested in truth too.

Indeed I did last year (2019) and it turned out very informative - lots of great historical information from folks with far more PPM experience than most of us here. Perhaps someone less lazy than I could dig that one up and reboot, or start anew.

Also, I totally "2nd" (no pun intended) the idea of tracking down Ricardo Mejia for his perspective on the PPM scene in the 90's. He and Carpenter dueled it out like Shorter/Rodgers, Geb/Tergat, etc etc... and it would be great to hear his angle on all this. Let's not forget he's also got five S-Z wins along the 2nd fastest all-time PPM @ 3:21 - a solid 6 minutes up on KJ in it's own right!

S. Canaday wrote:

But what really intrigues me is this "outlier" 3:16 Pikes time...

Enough already, stop with the insinuations and game playing, are you 12? You bring this up all of the time. You clearly do not believe that Matt's record 3:16:39 is valid, that something is amiss. So, just say it. Are you saying you believe he cut the course or that he took PEDs or both? Tell us what you think happened.

I think he's being honest and upfront...it's an outlier that needs some explanation. Whether or not it was doping or course cutting, would be inappropriate speculation. But that doesn't mean you can't point to an observable fact and say "that's an outlier."

Good ideas here. I knew of Ricardo's history because of his stellar Sierre-Zinal times and multiple wins. Guy is legend at SZ. Was just hanging out with him at the after party in Zinal last year actually. His times at Pikes are actually way more consistent with a few sub 3:30s (something Matt only did once with his big PR of 3:16). Interesting of note: Matt joined Ricardo as a "teammate" on the Fila SkyRunning team back in '93 apparently:http://skyrunner.com/story/meetmatt.htm I didn't realize Fila was so involved in "Sky Running" even back then, but it is interesting to see the dynamic change over time with the brands and how money shifts around in the sport. But back to Kilian: The science and data analysis does come into play when evaluating relative performances between something like a VK compared to a "flat" 10km. Just like we can analyze his 400m repeat workout or 3 x 5km workout and play the "guessing game" of what kind of time he can run in a race. Couple that with his "high Vo2max values" (much like Matt) and other actual race performances on courses that don't change much over time. If you follow his progression closely at a race like Sierre-Zinal you can see that last year's performance and record (2:25) was simply incredible. Especially considering Jono Wyatt (the former record holder) and his track credentials like a sub 28-min 10km and climbing ability at Mt. WA in 56-min. But it also makes one wonder (or at least I do) about the Pikes times of those "back in the day" vs the performances in the last 5-10 years? Certainly the race now has much more competitive depth for the top 10 (especially as part of the Golden Trail Series in 2018-2019).

I am Sam wrote:

Harambe wrote:

3200 feet in 1.4 miles is crazy. That's like 40+ % grade if my math is right.

Would have been sooo easy if we just stuck to the original 1km (which equals 1,000m) over 2.25km (equalling---you guessed it, 2,250m)

Don't even need the back of an envelope for that...which is exactly 40%

Maybe you should have used that envelope after all... 1/2.25 = 44.4%

Math better wrote:

I am Sam wrote:

Would have been sooo easy if we just stuck to the original 1km (which equals 1,000m) over 2.25km (equalling---you guessed it, 2,250m)

Don't even need the back of an envelope for that...which is exactly 40%

Maybe you should have used that envelope after all... 1/2.25 = 44.4%

tan(arcsin(1/2.25)) = 49.6%

zzzz wrote:

tan(arcsin(1/2.25)) = 49.6%

Hmmm. Does the 2.25km traveled mean that distance along the base of the triangle (i.e. a 'flat' 2.25km in distance relative to the Earth's surface), or that distance along the hypotenuse? I had always assumed the latter.

Okay, well considering that "I am Sam" and "zzzz" can't do basic math, it is no wonder a lot people don't see Matt Carpenter's 3:16 as an "outlier" when looking at the data spread. FYI a "VK" or Vertical Kilometer is 1km (1000m) of vertical gain within a 5km distance....so we are simply talking about a race that averages over 20% grade (that is a basic slope equation).

zzzz wrote:

Math better wrote:

Maybe you should have used that envelope after all... 1/2.25 = 44.4%

tan(arcsin(1/2.25)) = 49.6%

S. Canaday wrote:

Okay, well considering that "I am Sam" and "zzzz" can't do basic math,

it is no wonder a lot people don't see Matt Carpenter's 3:16 as an "outlier" when looking at the data spread.

FYI a "VK" or Vertical Kilometer is 1km (1000m) of vertical gain within a 5km distance....so we are simply talking about a race that averages over 20% grade (that is a basic slope equation).

You can't read. Where is 5 km mentioned anywhere? Killian's Instagram link shows 1km vertical in 2.25 km. That's 49.6% average grade if distance was measured along the slope, which some Suunto watches can do (at least my Ambit 3 Peak does). Or its 44.4%, as Math Better says if the distance is a horizontal measurement.

I live in one of the hilliest places on Earth. I don't think we have any roads or trails that come close to 45% incline.

A street in north Wales has been declared the steepest in the world. Residents in Harlech, Gwynedd, are celebrating after Guinness World Records verified the gradient of Ffordd Pen Llech at 37.45%. The title had been held by Baldwin Street in Dunedin, New Zealand, with a gradient of 35% at its steepest.

Lickskillet Road (Boulder County Road 89) is said to be the steepest county road in America, with an average gradient of 14.2% (and grades up to around 18%) over just about 1 mile on a well-graded dirt road. The top of the road is at the town of Gold Hill, at 8286' elevation.

The whole of Highland Bowl is a mother lode of steep skiing, noteworthy enough that the Aspen Highlands trail map list the pitch of every run, a range of 38 to 48 degrees. The only catch (and rite of passage) is the hike—30-40 minutes up to the top of the bowl at 12,392 feet.

Crested Butte has no shortage of steeps, with 542 acres of “Extreme Limits”—inbounds, double-black diamond terrain that will make you feel like you’re in a Teton Gravity Research film.

But it's Rambo, which tickles both sides of 50 degrees, that gives Crested Butte its claim to the steepest cut ski run in North America.