OP: false dichotomy. Eot
OP: false dichotomy. Eot
sub 6 king wrote:
I think Kofuzi's recent terrible mile time solves this thread. More than 60 miles per week of easy running, but struggles to run a downhill sub 6...
Who said that 100%easy running was the best training for the mile?
We are talking about the marathon. And Kofuzi is probably a decent marathon runner.
Workouts are obviously helpful at one point.
But until you can't run 80miles/week, just do easy and medium miles. It is will be more profitable in the long run increasing mileage than sharpening your 40mpw shape with workouts
I would say the 70 mpw would only be more beneficial if there was 2 or more runs a week that were 90-120 minutes. Otherwise the 50 mpw runner could get some gains from threshold running and muscle strength from hill repeats
Impala31 wrote:
sub 6 king wrote:
I think Kofuzi's recent terrible mile time solves this thread. More than 60 miles per week of easy running, but struggles to run a downhill sub 6...
Who said that 100%easy running was the best training for the mile?
We are talking about the marathon. And Kofuzi is probably a decent marathon runner.
Workouts are obviously helpful at one point.
But until you can't run 80miles/week, just do easy and medium miles. It is will be more profitable in the long run increasing mileage than sharpening your 40mpw shape with workouts
oh yeah, well I think you shouldn't do workouts until you reach 100 mpw! How's that?? Huh mr tough guy. If you cant do 100mpw you arent even a runner!
Swim Bike Run wrote:
do you even run bro wrote:
Marathon runners. If you’re only running 50-60 miles per week, should you do workouts? Or is the aerobic efficiency built purely off higher mileage.
If a runner wants to break 2:55 in the marathon and only runs 50 miles per week with say 2 workouts and a long run does he have a better chance than someone who’s been logging 70 + of easy mileage?
If anything, the less milage you run, workouts matter more as you need each mile to give you as much return as possible. This board has an obsession with high volume training and intervals never exceeding race pace. Reality is, the higher we can move the AT, the better you get at using lactate, the more efficient you will be as a runner.
We can either push from below or pull from above. Both methods work in conjunction with one another. We need to pull the AT up by doing intervals at slightly faster than AT and we need to push from below in longer steady state at sustainable pace to become more efficient at holding the sub threshold percentage.
This right here. 100 mpw never going faster than 7:00/mile will increase your endurance to run 7:00 pace till the cows come home but won’t make you faster to race a specific distance.
Some would say one needs to log at least 130 miles per week to maximize one's Marathon potential. Some would all athletes 400m to Marathon should do (6 or 7) x 800m at 3000m race pace at some time in their training. Obviously a 3000m specialist will do (6 or 7) x 800m at 3000m race pace more often than a 400m athlete and more often than a Marathoner. The gist of your question: Should a Marathoner do (6 or 7) x 800m at 3000m race pace before a Marathoner is able to log 130 miles a week? Yes. Middle school T&F coaches and/or youth T&F club coaches who coach 12 year old 1500m/1600m/one mile runners do not wait until 12 & 13 year old athletes get to 30 miles per week to do: 200s, 300s, 400s, & 500s. By the second week of middle school T&F, middle school T&F coach has 12 & 13 year olds doing: 200s, 300s, 400s & 500s. No reason for a Marathoner to not do (6 or 7) x 800m at 3000m race pace while logging 50 to 60 miles per week.
No,no,no ! Coach JS is the messias of running. Time has come for him to rule the running history!
do you even run bro wrote:
Marathon runners. If you’re only running 50-60 miles per week, should you do workouts? Or is the aerobic efficiency built purely off higher mileage.
If a runner wants to break 2:55 in the marathon and only runs 50 miles per week with say 2 workouts and a long run does he have a better chance than someone who’s been logging 70 + of easy mileage?
i ran 2:32 and did so, I think, by doing big, taxing workouts. The big workout efforts are the reason I ran fast-ish despite only 50-60 mpw. They trained my body to hurt and run hard for a long time. Running more than 60 mpw gets me injured and is rather boring to me, so i put effort in big workouts like the ones below. Usually one workout per week or every 10 days, one long run, one day off, didn't follow a rigid schedule and did workouts when feeling relatively good, 10- week buildup typically:
-4mi-3mi-2mi-1mi. Each is mile rep at MP pace with one mile recovery jog (7-7:20 pace)
-8 x mile - 60 seconds rest (Start at slightly faster than MP pace, end at around 10k pace- HARD)
-HM race (6 weeks out)
-3x3 mi @ MP pace, 5 min jog rest
-3 x 3 miles @ MP pace (last rep faster than MP pace) 2:00 jog rest
-4.5 mi warmup, 13 miles at MP (usually hopped in a HM race) 4.5 cooldown_22 miles total
-5 mile tempo @ HM pace
- 2 miles @ 10k pace, 1 mile at 5k pace, 800m hard, 400m - very hard
otherwise all miles were run between 6:45-8:15 pace, mostly on flat gravel path or hilly trails
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I PREPARE YOU TO be ready for a PB marathon best in just 8-12 weeks ....... Go the Dancan way!
At the risk of repeating someone else, I'd say workouts are _more_ important if you are running less than 60mpw. You might be able to get away without doing them if you are running 80+.
That is assuming you are running marathon or faster pace several times a week.
Easy Snowflake wrote:
This hits the nail on the head. Now is the best time we've ever had to build a great level of base fitness. No races means you can try a few different things and figure out what's best for you.
I do agree with what the OP is suggesting to an extent. A lot of runner would benefit from more base miles before adding their tough workouts but just running easy mileage for weeks on end will become a bit stale.
If you're a low mileage MARATHON Runner (higher intensity/lower volume can be great for the shorter distances) why not give yourself 10-12 weeks of steady mileage increase to get you up to more mileage than you've coped with in the past. Do strides 2-3 times a week concentrating on good form and being relaxed over all out speed - these are not sprints. And do 1 tempo run that is slower and more comfortable than what you usually do in this phase. Set yourself a time trial at the end of the 10-12 weeks. 5km or 10km i'd recommend as it's mentally less challenging and see where you're at. Then set your paces for workouts based on your TT effort for a few weeks. Repeat the cycle as necessary and if there's a race lined up soon, work back off that date with a similar cycle.
TLDR: Do 12 weeks base, 8 weeks quality, 2 week taper, then race! Simple.
So do workouts and not just mileage?:) Seriously nobody debates that doing a period of high volume is good. The idea of skipping the aerobic workouts during that phase though makes no sense.
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I’ve never ran a marathon but here’s my 2 cents.
In high school I have a different cross country and track coach. For XC we usually run 50 mpw with 3 workouts a week and a long run. It was pretty hard training and I often felt like I was zapped, but still ran fast.
In track we ran 20-40 mpw with three workouts a week and less emphasis on a long run. I found I always ran much better equivalents during track than I did during the cross country season a couple months prior. 21:1x vs 5:17, 17:2x vs 4:4x (Ran 16:2x this past fall and got in probably 4:25 shape this spring but I got injured).
I’m not a fast twitch guy. Even being in 4:25 shape I don’t think I would be able to break a 28 200.
The workouts we did in track were shorter and faster than in xc. Usually 100-400 reps and occasionally 600s.
My point is you need to run fast to actually run fast. Coming back from this injury I’m in a lot worse shape than I have been in a couple years, but next week I have some fast 200s and I know after that session I’ll feel a lot faster.
If you want to break 3 hours for a marathon, you aren’t going to just get there by running slow unless you’re in 2:40 marathon shape or something. The neuromuscular and physiological adaptions of certain workouts is what make them important. Without them, you’re simply not getting the same benefits, regardless of race distance.
Also in the marathon you will need to practice long runs with MP miles in them to avoid hitting the wall in a race. Marathon is all about fuel efficiency.
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Just replying!
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Excessive exercise and fitness will accelerate the attenuation of our telomeres, thereby accelerating our aging.