Caster Semenya is delusional: "I can do anything from 100m to a marathon..I call myself 'supernatural'."

Yes, she is supernatural, we know that. Back in the days we used to call it a freak of nature, now that is politically incorrect.

She is also becoming supernaturally stupid.

Stoppit Smith wrote:

Wait. Robert Johnson (Rojo) just made a new thread.

He's here.

No answers?

i just don't see why Rojo needs to start ANOTHER thread about this

Putting aside the issue of whether rojo in particular is racist or sexist, why is it sexist and racist generally to question Semenya's right to continue to participate in female athletic events?

It's more than a year now since the IAAF/World Athletics released details of exactly who its DSD regs apply to, and nearly a year since the CAS released its full decision on Semenya's case against the IAAF/WA. From those documents, we know that Semenya has the following characteristics:

XY male sex chromosomes;

fully-functioning testicles;

no ovaries or other female reproductive organs;

male levels of testosterone that are normal for males of Semenya's age, and which don't come anywhere near even the top of the female range, which is many times lower than the male range;

working androgen receptors that allow Semenya to utilize testosterone in typically male ways.

From the CAS documents, we also know that Semenya has a DSD that is specific to males, 5-ARD.

5-ARD is a genetic enzyme deficiency that interferes with the ability to convert testosterone into dihydrotestosterone or DHT. In utero, male fetuses require DHT for their external genitalia to develop properly. In the development of female fetuses, DHT plays no role.

Male babies with 5-ARD are born with external genitalia that look atypical for male newborns. The testes might be undescended and buried in groin tissue; or they might be internal. The penises of males with 5-ARD might appear small or entirely absent at birth. Some males with 5-ARD have empty, flattened scrotal sacs that at birth appear to onlookers to resemble vulvas.

Some males with 5-ARD have shallow, blind pouches of skin that are inverted into the pelvis (usually less than an inch in depth) that are mistakenly referred to as vaginas, though in fact they are nothing like them. Because vaginas are muscular, long, highly elastic tubes made for childbirth that are lined with unique self-cleaning tissue, have a unique flora, and connect to the uterus and the rest of the female reproductive tract. Vaginas are not shallow, dead-ended cul-de-sacs made out of flaccid scrotal or penile tissue whose development went awry in utero.

Sometimes the urethras of males with 5-ARD empty into these shallow skin pouches, which then is taken as "proof" that these children must be females because they "pee from their vaginas." But, in fact, such a conclusion just indicates gross ignorance of female anatomy. Fact is, females don't pee from our vaginas. We pee from our urethras, which are located in our vulvas near our vaginal openings, but are completely separate from our vaginas. It's only in male humans that the urethra is inside a sex organ.

5-ARD also occurs in female people, but in females it has no appreciable effect because DHT does not play a crucial role in female development or physiology in utero or later.. So in females, 5-ARD is a defect or anomaly, but it's not a DSD (difference or disorder of sex development).

This is typical for DSDs, nearly all of which occur in one and only one sex. In the case of 5-ARD, it's a male-only DSD.

5-ARD in males is well understood. In the Dominican Republic, where it occurs fairly commonly, this DSD is known as "penis at twelve" because when children with it enter puberty, it's male puberty they go through because their testicles then begin producing normal male pubertal levels of testosterone. Even if a male child with 5-ARD was mistakenly thought to be female at birth, the significant changes to the genitals and the rest of his body that occur during puberty usually make it abundantly clear that he is, in fact, a male.

All around the world, the vast majority of boys with 5-ARD who were mistakenly thought to be female at birth are recognized by others, and recognize themselves as, males during and after puberty. In countries where the condition is understood and occurs more commonly, such as the DR, there is no stigma in it. In places as diverse as Turkey, France and Pakistan, it's long been the custom for males with 5-ARD who were mis-sexed at birth to be given guidance and support to come to terms and adjust to the reality that they are actually males.

The one major exception to this general rule can be found amongst males with 5-ARD who have already been competing - and successfully - in female sports. In the general population of the world, 5-ARD is quite rare. But amongst elite level athletes participating in female events over the past decade - particularly those from countries now said to be in "the global South" - this male-only DSD is found at a rate 140 times more than in the rest of the population. Funny that.

The CAS decision, and the history of the case as reported in the South African press and documented by Ross Tucker at Science of Sport, show that South African sports authorities knew that Semenya was a male with 5-ARD before they put Semenya on the world stage in 2009 as SA's new "golden girl." SA sports officials expected the IAAF to challenge Semenya's sex, and they cynically said they'd make out the IAAF to be a bunch of white racist colonialists if they did. Which is exactly what's happened.

Semenya's testimony in the CAS decision also shows that Semenya has known the medical truth since being fully examined and tested by SA physicians in the summer of 2009, before Semenya's first international meet. And a thorough examination of Semenya's story and statements over the years provides ample reason to question the oft-repeated narrative that when Semenya was growing up no one ever questioned whether Semenya was really female.

Why is sexist to question the right of Semenya and other male athletes with 5-ARD (and a handful of other male-only DSDs) to compete in women's sports?

To me, the sexism here seems to be towards females who are being made to compete with males. And who are being told that any male born with a birth defect that caused his dick to be abnormal or missing is really a female - and that the only appreciable difference between male and female humans is testosterone levels. Because behind such claims is the sexist and misogynist assumption that males are the default and the norm, that male anatomy is the correct anatomy, and we women are merely defective and lesser men.

And why is it racist to question the right of Semenya and other males with DSDs to compete in women's sports?

In 1967, women's World Cup alpine ski champion Erika Schinegger of Austria was found to be a male with a male-only DSD shortly before the 1968 Olympics, where Schinegger was favored to win the gold in all the women's alpine races. Austrian officials immediately withdrew Schinegger from competition. He retreated into privacy, got therapy, had surgery to correct his condition as best could be done, and later went on to father a child. But his reign as a world-class ski champion was over forever.

Seems to me that holding Semenya - and Wambui, Niyonsaba, et al - to an entirely different standard, and much lower code of ethics and sense of fair play, than the ones Schinegger was held to more than 50 years ago is what's really racist.

Stoppit Smith wrote:

Random?

You would not have entered a post about Caster Semenya ready to defend the complexities of Rojo if you were random.

Stop

This isn't a contest or team sport. The idea is to improve our understanding of one another and not malign those who disagree.

Jenny Simpson ftw wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

Putting aside the issue of whether rojo in particular is racist or sexist, why is it sexist and racist for Rojo to act sexist and racist?

Wow!!!

Doctoring other people's posts for purpose of making them appear to have written something entirely different from - and opposite to- what they actually did write is really not on. In my neck of the woods, that's known as a cheap shot. And it's considered unethical.

What I wrote was:

Putting aside the issue of whether rojo in particular is racist or sexist, why is it sexist and racist generally to question Semenya's right to continue to participate in female athletic events?

How about you try answering that question, addressing the fundamental issues at hand here. I happen to believe SA and Semenya have perpetuated a fraud on the world for more than a decade now. And I can back my contentions up.

Again: Why is it racist and sexist for women such as myself to question Semenya's participation in female sports?

Understanding? Ok, I get it. Many people have ideas about Semenya in terms of what they feel about her right to compete, but had you read the whole article (I did), you would understand why Rojo showed a pronounced lack of understanding by attacking her statement/goal/dream here. Rojo maligned Semenya. Again. For something different. Again. I'm no stranger to letsrun and the Semenya attacks. I have been within many defending Semenya. But what Mr. Johnson did would be like him saying that he is good enough to win a Pulitzer Prize to a local paper, me actively seeking articles about Robert Johnson for the sake of finding out what he is doing, finding his statement, publishing it and slamming it. If he has never met, nor actively spoken to Caster Semenya, this kind of journalism is highly irresponsible. What is there to understand besides a deep-seated vendetta???

randompasserby wrote:

Stoppit Smith wrote:

Random?

You would not have entered a post about Caster Semenya ready to defend the complexities of Rojo if you were random.

Stop

This isn't a contest or team sport. The idea is to improve our understanding of one another and not malign those who disagree.

Here's your answer.

For years, she was accepted as a female. This new legislation on the actual sex really originated by a witch hunt by Sebastian Coe to defend a heartbroken Laura Muir, and this is what people are not saying.

Those in the Muir camp are truly showing that they have a cellular vision if what a true female must look like (not unlike the reasons why WNBA Center Brittney Griner suffered persecution). However, it was widely accepted for a long time that Caster Semenya was an intersex female.

There had been suspicions of intersex athletes in Asian or European countries, but nobody pursued it or came at the athletes with the fervor that Semenya is receiving.

You see that she's of African descent, you see her face, you see her as an easy target.

Mr. Johnson has made many non-clinical assessments in the past about his view of Semenya. If you examine past threads, you'll see that the rhetoric he uses crosses several lines.

Letsrun.com takes pride in their coverage of the sport of running, but Mr. Johnson has taken it upon himself to be a vulture against Semenya. Right now, he is being a bully. As he is, in fact, a new uncle, I'd entreat him to re-examine how he views females.

Furthermore, he should leave Caster Semenya alone until she does something wrong.

All very emotional.

Simple fact is that Semenya is a physiological male competing in the category for physiological females.

Whether the scam worked for 1 month or a decade, it doesn't change those facts.

No. Those remain your facts and the facts of those that agree with your.

Her official clinical pronouncement of sex is what prevails.

Not Coe.

Not CAS.

Not any agency.

Regardless if any international sport agency considers her male (they haven't) or considers her as having too high of a testosterone level (they have), the fact is that she was labeled female.

That's it. No more tap dancing about this. Show me where anyone has clinically determined that she's a man.

But what this really is about is quite sad, we all know this right?

Suddenly Caster Semenya really isn't somebody we need to talk about anymore. She's been fairly made ineligible to compete in the womens category of the 800m because scientifically she does not have the physical characteristics of a woman, and now that this decision has been made and there are no appeals, she has, for better or worse slipped out of the spotlight.

For some individuals this can be hard to accept and this is when they resort to these sorts of basically delusional comments in order to at the very least become relevant and talked about again - even if in the sense of the general consensus here which is that she is crazy.

This is more of a cry for help if anything. Caster Semenya I'm sure has some context of track and field and performance. She knows that even if she managed to break 23 seconds for the 200m (which I would be very impressed if she could) this equates to maybe a 2nd round exit at a major championships at absolute best.

So yeah, nice that she satisfied the itch so to speak by getting in the news, but we should all just relax and take with a grain of salt.

Stoppit Smith wrote:

Regardless if any international sport agency considers her male (they haven't) or considers her as having too high of a testosterone level (they have), the fact is that she was labeled female.

Semenya is 45-XY DSD. These people are physiologically male who are often misidentified at birth.

I.e. Semenya is a man making a lot of money scamming the sport. Laura Muir isn't the only female athlete who has been conned out of a medal by this individual.

No. She was determined to have 46XY 5-ARD (IAAF) This shows her testosterone levels at the level of a male and not of an XX female (IAAF) Nobody has declared her physiologically male. Find a source of this...specifically for Semenya's case.

trollism wrote:

Stoppit Smith wrote:

Regardless if any international sport agency considers her male (they haven't) or considers her as having too high of a testosterone level (they have), the fact is that she was labeled female.

Semenya is 45-XY DSD. These people are physiologically male who are often misidentified at birth.

I.e. Semenya is a man making a lot of money scamming the sport. Laura Muir isn't the only female athlete who has been conned out of a medal by this individual.

Stoppit Smith wrote:

No. She was determined to have 46XY 5-ARD (IAAF)

This shows her testosterone levels at the level of a male and not of an XX female (IAAF)

Nobody has declared her physiologically male.

Find a source of this...specifically for Semenya's case.

trollism wrote:

Semenya is 45-XY DSD. These people are physiologically male who are often misidentified at birth.

I.e. Semenya is a man making a lot of money scamming the sport. Laura Muir isn't the only female athlete who has been conned out of a medal by this individual.

You know someone with XY chromosomes and no significant PAIS in sporting terms would have to be a male athlete yes?

Your emotional response to this is irrelevant. These are the cold hard facts. An XY athlete with a normal response to testosterone can't be competing in the female category.

It's interesting how much this matters to you though, I'm intrigued as to why. It can't just be a vendetta against the Brojos, you've got something going on here given you pop up every time there's a thread over a matter of years.

Absolutely. Because I am not a troll, but I disagree vehemently with the way Caster Semenya is treated here, specifically. The CAS and IAAF while investigating Semenya deeply speak in agency and professional terms. On letsrun.com, she is slung through the gutter using the basest and most patronizing language I've ever seen. I have no vendetta against the Johnson Brothers, but what they have allowed to happen here while calling it journalism is beyond atrocious. As some of you recall, I first came here in defense of AJ Acosta several years ago. I had just seen Acosta at the Carlsbad 5000 that year and as a fellow San Diegan then (I'm now by Nashville), i wanted to see how his career was going. I came upon Letsrun.com piling on Acosta. So i entered. Since then, I've been in threads defending Acosta of course, but also Cain, Rupp, Webb, Hall, and Semenya to name a few. These are professional athletes. The way that they are being dragged in the most awful of the sewers of the room is an affront to anyone that would call themselves a journalist. Even Star Magazine, the National Enquirer and the New York Post use better language and less vile descriptors than letsrun.com. Furthermore, the endless vitriol is perpetuated and sometimes even perpetrated by the Johnson Brothers themselves. This has been so very not okay for so long, so yes I will continue to evaluate these threads and post when I feel that someone has been stripped of their dignity. quote]trollism wrote:

Stoppit Smith wrote:

No. She was determined to have 46XY 5-ARD (IAAF)

This shows her testosterone levels at the level of a male and not of an XX female (IAAF)

Nobody has declared her physiologically male.

Find a source of this...specifically for Semenya's case.

trollism wrote:

Semenya is 45-XY DSD. These people are physiologically male who are often misidentified at birth.

I.e. Semenya is a man making a lot of money scamming the sport. Laura Muir isn't the only female athlete who has been conned out of a medal by this individual.

You know someone with XY chromosomes and no significant PAIS in sporting terms would have to be a male athlete yes?

Your emotional response to this is irrelevant. These are the cold hard facts. An XY athlete with a normal response to testosterone can't be competing in the female category.

It's interesting how much this matters to you though, I'm intrigued as to why. It can't just be a vendetta against the Brojos, you've got something going on here given you pop up every time there's a thread over a matter of years.[/quote]

ready made wrote:

Webbasedreading wrote:

REPORTED

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I really want to know who in World Athletics decided that dropping T, turns a man into a woman.

A man is a man down to every cell in his body. His brain is even different to a woman’s.

It’s like taking a Porsche and taking off a few panels and saying it’s now a go cart.

Do a chromosome test. Write the legal qualification for women’s competition is XX chromosomes. Anyone else competes in the open category. Or, Make an event in the special Olympics. It’s a disability like any other disability. Call it what it is.

23 seconds for the 200m doesn't win anything. It doesn't even qualify for the Olympics. She is not supernatural in anything.

Stoppit Smith wrote:

Regardless if any international sport agency considers her male (they haven't) or considers her as having too high of a testosterone level (they have), the fact is that she was labeled female.

That's it. No more tap dancing about this. Show me where anyone has clinically determined that she's a man.

Caster Semenya was not issued a birth certificate at or soon after birth - not uncommon in the rural province where Semenya was born.

Semenya was first issued a birth certificate in April 2007, when Semenya was 16 and South African authorities already had hopes of making Semenya the country's "golden girl" in international women's running. The 2007 birth certificate is the first official identity document from any body that says Semenya is female.

The New Yorker reported in 2009 that the head of Semenya's high school was surprised to find out that Semenya "identified as" female, something he found out only in Semenya's final year. When Semenya's first running coach spoke to The New Yorker about Semenya, he used male pronouns throughout.

There's plenty of photos online showing that Semenya attended school wearing a boy's uniform. Semenya also played football (soccer) on the boys' team, until finally getting kicked off for being too rough. Which is when Semenya started running.

In the decision regarding Semenya's case against the IAAF released by the Court of Arbitration for Sport last year, on pages 72 and 73 the IAAF formally "submits" and "states":

The only thing that sets apart athletes with 5-ARD, male XY chromosomes, male gonads (testes), and adult levels of adult male circulating testosterone from all other males is that "their external genitals may not have been fully masculinised."

Such athletes are "biologically ...the same in every material respect as males without DSDs.."

"The only material physical difference between (XY) 5-ARD athletes and male athletes without DSD is the size and shape of their external genitals..."

Nice. But it's still not saying that she's a man.

Clinically, it still does address some differences that exist.

The reality is that her genitalia were ambiguous.

It is not uncommon for 5-ARD individuals to be raised as females. Ergo, as far as she was concerned, she was female.

But because the genitalia were ambiguous as a result of the ARD, she's still not a man.