Official Russia vs Ukraine War Thread

Yes, I have one recent example. Czechoslovakia. In 1993 Czechoslovakia, without a shot being fired, became the Czech Republic and Slovakia. I think all it took was a handshake to seal the deal.

For a European you don't know much about local/modern history of your continent, do you?

Interesting read to understand the root of the civil war :

From Wikipedia:
Russia suspected that Ukraine's 2014 unrest had American backing because, they said, former Ukrainian President, Viktor Yanukovych, overturned IMF reforms tabled by the International Monetary Fund and USAID, and the National Endowment for Democracy fomented the anti government opinion.

From BBC article on 18th December 2013:
There was no way Ukraine could have signed the EU agreement as Kiev would have had to accept unfeasibly stringent IMF conditions for economic reform. "What would have awaited Ukraine? The answer is clear - bankruptcy and social collapse," Ukraine's Prime Minister Mykola Azarov said.

So Yanukovich rejects EU deal and accepts $15bn and cheaper gas prices deal from Russia instead. Gets (illegally) ousted from the government as a consequence.

West Ukraine thinks Russia wanted to screw Ukraine out of a EU deal and East Ukraine thinks EU wanted to screw Ukraine.

Kudos to you knowing European history better than me. Either way it didn't go down like this in East Ukraine for sure. Kiev never wanted to let off Donbas.

How Luhansk and Donetsk declared independence from Ukraine:
Attempts by various Ukrainian governments to question the legitimacy of the Russian culture in Ukraine had since the Declaration of Independence of Ukraine often resulted in political conflict. In the Ukrainian national elections, a remarkably stable pattern had developed, where Donbas and the Western Ukrainian regions had voted for the opposite candidates since the presidential election in 1994. Viktor Yanukovych, a Donetsk native, had been elected as a president of Ukraine in 2010. His overthrow in the 2014 Ukrainian revolution led to protests in Eastern Ukraine, which gradually escalated into an armed conflict between the newly formed Ukrainian government and the local armed militias.

Btw., while I absolutely can see how and why Russia wanted to keep Ukraine close, I also can totally see how US and EU wanted to absorb Ukraine in the course of different "necessary" economic reforms. Good example is Lithuania, not much there belongs to Lithuanians anymore since entering the EU. An insane story is how Lithuania lost its largest Lithuanian oil refinery Orlen Lietuva (former Mažeikių Nafta) to an American company...

The West sees underdeveloped Eastern countries as food, that's a fact. There is no such thing as free dinner.

Since Putin has been in power, election results in Russia, Ukraine and Belarus have always been looked down upon with a juntas eye. Either the ballot boxes were stuffed or Putin sent in his "little green men" to save the day for the least popular vote getter.

Nuremberg-like trial planned for Russian war criminals

nbcnews.com

Grim Independence Day in Ukraine shows need to prosecute Russia's Vladimir Putin

The Nuremberg trials provide a model for holding the Russian president and members of his regime accountable.

Link:www.nbcnews.com/think/amp/rcna44667

Let's look at the economic successes (or failures) of the post-Soviet countries. They can be broadly divided into 4 groups based on GDP per capita:

1. ~$20,000 / year -- Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania
2. ~$10,000 / year -- Russia, Kazakhstan, and Turkmenistan
3. ~$5,000 / year -- Belarus, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine
4. ~$1,000 / year -- Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan

The three countries in tier 1 are all members of the EU. Clearly, aligning with the west did wonders for their economic development. Average GDP = $20,309 / year.

There are five countries that make up the Eurasian Economic Union, headed by Russia (Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Belarus, Russia, Armenia) with an average GDP of $6,207 (if the two observer countries (Uzbekistan and Moldova) are included, the average GDP drops to $5,325).

So, it's not surprising that many Ukrainians saw the proverbial writing on the wall and wanted nothing to do with signing an agreement with Russia back in 2014, when they saw other former Soviet countries prospering after aligning with the EU.

Russia is an economic anchor holding back the growth of its "allies".

I see your logic, but have to disagree. Ukraine is nowhere near economic levels of Baltic states. As I mentioned before it would have taken an entire economic reform to meet European standards and that reform would have bankrupted Ukraine. Also higher GDP is all good and nice, but on the other hand, all strategic businesses and resources eventually would end up absorbed by the West. A paradox: while people would indeed make more money, the country would own much less.

If your figures are correct, well said.

That's my point though - Ukraine is not at the economic levels of the Baltic states specifically because of its close ties to Russia (rather than the EU) up to 2014. It's not surprising that many people wanted to cast off the Russian anchor and follow the trajectory of the Baltic states (even if somewhat delayed). Obviously, per capita GDP is not the only measure of economic success, but it's an indicator - I welcome somebody with more knowledge providing a more thorough analysis.

All data taken from here due to relative completeness and ease of export. I can't ensure its validity, but it basically agrees with other sources that I have spot-checked.

CNN is reporting Russia has disconnected the big nuclear plant from the UKR grid.

this is a step toward meltdown, since now presumably the plant is being cooled only by diesel generators, not the main system. They could run out of diesel, the generators could break down, war could destroy the generators, etc.

Russia and the GOP are the two most dangerous organizations on the planet.

edition.cnn.com

Russian-held Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant disconnected from power grid for second day after nearby fires | CNN

Tim Lister,Yulia Kesaieva,Tara John

Ukraine's Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, which is held by Russian forces, is still disconnected from the country's power grid, a day after being disconnected for the first time in its history, according to the country's nu...

Link:edition.cnn.com/2022/08/25/europe/ukra...

This caught my eye, so I tried to do some research. Wikipedia indicates that Orlen Lietuva is "a subsidiary of the Polish PKN Orlen" and PKN Orlen is "a Polish oil refiner and petrol retailer." I will happily admit to being wrong, but PKN Orlen doesn't appear to have any connection to the USA.

en.wikipedia.org

PKN Orlen

Polski Koncern Naftowy Orlen (PKN Orlen), often known as just Orlen, is a Polish oil refiner and petrol retailer. The corporation is a significant European publicly traded firm with major operations in Poland, Czech Republic,...

Link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PKN_Orlen

en.wikipedia.org

Orlen Lietuva

Orlen Lietuva (former Mažeikių Nafta) is a subsidiary of the Polish PKN Orlen and it owns the Mažeikiai oil refinery as well as the oil-processing plant in Lithuania. It is the only oil refinery in the Baltic States. Refinery...

Link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlen_Lietuva

ok looks like the power was restored after a short break. Thank goodness.

Human beings are not smart enough to have nuclear power.

First sold to an American company, then a Russian company, now to a Polish company.

From second your wikipedia link:

Why would Russia cause the biggest nuclear power plant in Europe to melt down when great parts of Russia are down wind from it? The Russians may not be the sharpest pencil in the drawer, but they are not that stupid.

Perhaps the Russians are re-routing the electricity to Russia. Russia has been stealing everything else from Ukraine, why not their electricity also?

Ukraine 2014 was an actual ressurection.

Losses?

Around 80,000 200's and 300's.