Only a liar can truly be bullied to death by the truth, when that liar is practically untouchable & uses his standing to bully others with lawyers, major institutions, etc. Now they want a special law made postmortem, that would magically protect his family & friends & other cheaters.
once a toker wrote:
It's one thing to call out and try to prove a guy cheated. He did cheat, fine. It's another level to have hundreds and thousands of people questioning his character and value as a person while slewing insults and unsubstantiative rumors. People are a lot more sophisticated than their ugliest moment. It paints an unfair and unintelligent/false label on to a person. Literally anyone can be cyber bullied/publically shamed for anything on the Internet in this day and age. The people online feel a sense of belonging and superiority by cyber bullying. A lot of people have voids to fill and secretly crave those feelings. Cheating is usually a hot topic because people can relate to it and know that it's not pleasant to be cheated in any way. If Frank robbed a bank, the only way people would care was if he was an accomplished person. To be publically shamed on a large scale means you're also successful and doing something right. These online shamers do not go after losers. They want to bring winners down to their level. The fact that Frank was a doctor and accomplished individual provided the vigilantes with psychological reasoning to pursue him. Unfortunately, things did not end well. He was definitely bullied to death but the fact that he did kill himself and did cheat for a long time probably reveals that he was a sad man inside for a long time. The bullies exacerbated his inner void and ultimately sealed his fate.
It appears you stopped being a toker a little late. Alas, if only we could get it through kid’s heads that it kills brain cells.
doubler wrote:
Are you going to continue the work to investigate the other races Meza may have cheated in?
No.
Why not? The cheating still exists and needs to be exposed, right? Unless, of course, your motives are not to right wrongs and report on people who cheat, but rather to publicly shame people.
doubler wrote:
Are you going to continue the work to investigate the other races Meza may have cheated in?
No.
Why not? The cheating still exists and needs to be exposed, right? Unless, of course, your motives are not to right wrongs and report on people who cheat, but rather to publicly shame people.
Ernest wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
What's "Frank's Law"?
Frank's Law?
Variably, and effort to (1) deny and shift attention from Frank's cheating, (2) blame anyone but Frank for his suicide, (3) raise cash, and (4) generally assail first-amendment rights.
$15,742 raised, apparently kicked off by $10 from his wife. No that's putting your money where you mouth is.
"Through your donation to the AltaMed Foundation... Efforts will also be made to pass legislation that provides protection to individuals who experience online aggression.
https://in-memory-of-dr-frank-meza.everydayhero.com/us/altamed-health-servicesMore:
Really Puzzled wrote:
I just saw this public post on Facebook about Frank Meza's family trying to pass a "Frank's law" for "cyber bullying" by lobbying and fundraising through the Altamed Foundation. All of them are still in complete denial of every single piece of evidence that Frank Meza pretty much cheated in every single race he ever participated in. They and that foundation are still blaming everyone else, taking no responsibility that Frank Meza was a prolific, life long cheater
Coming to LA in the near future, the Frank Meza Marathon where anybody can "run" a sub 3 hour marathon!
We'll provide you with bikes, so that you can go 5k from 18 to 25 mins, depends on how fast or slow you want to be!
We'll provide you with 2 watches, so that you can see what your total time is and how you should time your 5k splits!
All you have to do is just go off course multiple times claiming that you needed to pee since you didn't see any portapotty.
We'll also provide you with removable timing chips so that you can dangle it when crossing timing mats!
We won't blink an eye if you run the wrong way on a segment of your sub 3 hour marathon!
Even if you are seeing with the elites running!
Can I get a crowdfunding for this marathon?
“Finis” seems to want to publicly shame Derek for being good at what he does.
Ernest wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
What's "Frank's Law"?
Frank's Law?
Variably, and effort to (1) deny and shift attention from Frank's cheating, (2) blame anyone but Frank for his suicide, (3) raise cash, and (4) generally assail first-amendment rights.
$15,742 raised, apparently kicked off by $10 from his wife. No that's putting your money where you mouth is.
"Through your donation to the AltaMed Foundation... Efforts will also be made to pass legislation that provides protection to individuals who experience online aggression.
https://in-memory-of-dr-frank-meza.everydayhero.com/us/altamed-health-services
[/quote]
Seems like Frank was loved and touched a lot of people's lives in a positive way.
We could even have a porta potty app with voice synthesizer, saying “Your runner needs to pee NOW.”
Ernest wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
What's "Frank's Law"?
Frank's Law?
Variably, and effort to (1) deny and shift attention from Frank's cheating, (2) blame anyone but Frank for his suicide, (3) raise cash, and (4) generally assail first-amendment rights.
$15,742 raised, apparently kicked off by $10 from his wife. No that's putting your money where you mouth is.
"Through your donation to the AltaMed Foundation... Efforts will also be made to pass legislation that provides protection to individuals who experience online aggression.
https://in-memory-of-dr-frank-meza.everydayhero.com/us/altamed-health-servicesMore:
Really Puzzled wrote:
I just saw this public post on Facebook about Frank Meza's family trying to pass a "Frank's law" for "cyber bullying" by lobbying and fundraising through the Altamed Foundation. All of them are still in complete denial of every single piece of evidence that Frank Meza pretty much cheated in every single race he ever participated in. They and that foundation are still blaming everyone else, taking no responsibility that Frank Meza was a prolific, life long cheater
Yeah. An anti-cyber bullying law sounds like such a bad idea. :rolleyes
Yeah, that Assistant DA could prosecute himself to show how impartial he is, after those threats against LR.
Paul P. wrote:
Ernest wrote:
Frank's Law?
Variably, and effort to (1) deny and shift attention from Frank's cheating, (2) blame anyone but Frank for his suicide, (3) raise cash, and (4) generally assail first-amendment rights.
$15,742 raised, apparently kicked off by $10 from his wife. No that's putting your money where you mouth is.
"Through your donation to the AltaMed Foundation... Efforts will also be made to pass legislation that provides protection to individuals who experience online aggression.
https://in-memory-of-dr-frank-meza.everydayhero.com/us/altamed-health-services
Seems like Frank was loved and touched a lot of people's lives in a positive way.[/quote]
+1
Another cheater ploy is to say the cheating has stopped (in Meza’s case it seems multi-generational), so of course no one is ever allowed to mention it again.
triathleteguru wrote:
Raddison wrote:
I agree with your post though I have one caveat. I do think the Frank Meza story is worthy of a professional write up similar to that of Kip Litton in the New Yorker. That doesn't mean that the crowd sourced investigation on LRC should continue, it should not. But rather, if Derek and a professional writer were to collaborate and continue investigation in private, I believe a very interesting and morally instructive account could be produced. However, I also think that nothing should be published until several years have passed and the shock and pain of Frank's suicide have passed.
So much of Frank's story reminds me of the Donald Crowhurst story from the 1960s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8boBxNlQSUMhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_CrowhurstYes, very similar aspects with the Donald Crowhurst story! I highly suggest watching the documentary on youtube, Deep Water. I only learned about it after Frank's death and have watched it then.
I too agree that the Frank Meza story is worthy of a story similar to the one about Kip Litton or this one about Julie Miller -
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/10/sports/julie-miller-ironman-triathlon-cheat.htmlthough I disagree on waiting several years. This is what I've been advocating for and have started writing my own which I will try to get published as an opinion piece somewhere if and when I actually complete it.
With regards to Smoove's statement above - "At some point, the further condemnation of Frank became pointless. We reached that point long ago, no matter how much triathlete guru and some others try to rationalize their way to validate continued efforts on this front." This statement coincides with others questioning why this thread continues on or should be allowed to as people have called for it to get shut down.
There is a narrative that has now been accepted in the MSM, Frank Meza was cyber bullied to death by the running internet mob. Many who have bought into this narrative believe Frank's claims to have only left the course to pee. Anyone who objectively looks at the evidence know this is patently false. Others say that Frank was DQ'd from the 2019 LA Marathon, that should have been enough. What most people don't comprehend is the elaborate and likely decade long cheating that Frank had entangled himself in. Derek states as much in his recent post "What got lost by posting the evidence across multiple articles was the scope of the story. The story of Frank Meza covers many races over many years. Many casual readers do not realize that this story began well before The 2019 LA Marathon."
So, if things are left as is, we have Frank's family left to believe he was bullied to death over the 2019 LA Marathon from which he was unjustly disqualified. We have 90% of the public believing he might have cheated in one marathon, but that he was disqualified from it and the bullying is what pushed him over the edge. When in reality, the story which has not been clearly told is that Frank Meza entangled himself in a web of lies going back a decade or more and unfortunately saw no way out. Rather than the "bullying", it is likely the shame from the truth coming out that drove Frank over the edge.
We can take two different paths here. We can accept that a false narrative has won out and out of respect for Frank's memory and the feelings of his family let them believe the false narrative. Or, we can continue to examine what happened with the hopes that the narrative will get set straight with an article as pointed out above.
Why does it matter that the narrative get set straight? With the false narrative, we have Tina Meza pushing for an anti bullying law to get passed. With the correct narrative, maybe race directors will realize that results do matter and that steps should be taken for runner accountability. That a quick a decisive decision to DQ over timing anomalies might be the better decision than long drawn out decisions to DQ. Or perhaps a national governing body could step up with some type of solution? Perhaps a consortium of races and timing companies?
Maybe someone should write an article about the LA Marathon, what culpability do or should they have in this debacle? They had more than enough evidence to issue a DQ of Frank in 2015, but failed to do so. What does it say about a race that when actually going through their 2019 results to DQ Frank, they have to also retroactively remove the 4th place finisher from the age group as well? Do they care at all about results? It cost's $180 to register right now for the 2020 LA Marathon. A through examination of one age group, the men's 70-74 found two in the top 5 that didn't belong!
Have people asked the question, what if Frank had been clearly DQ'd for cheating and wasn't given the wiggle room that he was? On the day he died by suicide, his family still believed he hadn't cheated. If the LA Marathon and Phoenix Marathon had released clear statements that Frank had cheated, perhaps those closest to Frank could have intervened in his life?
Or should we bury our heads in the sand?
A bit of advice. Seek professional help at once. There is something seriously wrong with you.
I guess only round-the-world sailors can have their cheating made into movies, not runners. That’s a shame, because there’s only about ten of them, and there are millions of us.
Ernest wrote:
There are a lot of valid questions his family, supporters, and potential accomplices seem to be working hard to keep from being asked.
They can't be working too hard. You've been able to ask your questions...twice.
LOL
Paul P. wrote:
Seems like Frank was loved and touched a lot of people's lives in a positive way.
And sadly, lied to each and every one of them.
SDSU Aztec wrote:
90% of the public? Come on. 90% of the public didn't hear about the story and wouldn't care if they had. This wasn't the biggest story since O.J.
Most runners don't have any interest in cheating so I don't believe it's as big a problem as people are making it out to be. Nobody is going to cheat their way to a 2:10 and if a handful cheat to get a BQ it's not the end of the world. RDs can put extra volunteers out on the course to watch for people leaving the course to "pee", but split analysis works well and was used to DQ Meza from the CIM.
Tina Meza, like Trump, will lose her battle against the 1st Amendment.
When I said 90%, I should have clarified, I was referring to people who actually read any of the MSM articles. about Frank. And yes, I pulled the number 90% out of my butt... but I'm certain there are lots of people out there that aren't convinced Frank cheated at all or think it was a one off cheat or honest mistake made in the LA Marathon, that he only left the course to pee. Obviously, people here on Letsrun are not your average people and know enough to realize he blatantly cheated, many of the MSM articles however left it very ambiguous.
You might be right that most runners don't have any interest in cheating, but it happens a lot more than you are probably willing to admit just due to the number of runners that are out there. 2 out of the top 5 in Frank's age group at the 2019 LA Marathon.
Split analysis does work well, the problem is races don't do it! CIM did, but there are 4 years of Frank in the LA Marathon where each time split analysis could have and should have resulted in his DQ, but it didn't happen. If all races treated their results like CIM, we wouldn't be having this debate...
This would be a good topic for ‘Spirit of the Marathon III’
Ernest wrote:
Where did I state everyone calling for cessation of enquiry is a Frank sympathizer? They may well be, but it’s not a generalization I made.
As someone who’s put a lot of effort into legitimately running fast, one might expect you’d care more about integrity of the competitive result.
I do care about the integrity of competitive results. I just happen to think that the odds are very high that if any person who is sophisticated enough from a running perspective to go back and pull up old race results to see who was the age group winner for one of Frank's marathons does that and sees Frank's name, they are likely to have a pretty good inkling that Frank was a habitual cheater.
To the extent that is not the case, I simply don't think that the social cost of Frank appearing to someone as the age group winner in those races is high enough to justify continued widespread efforts to have the records purged of Frank's name. The race directors from the races in which Frank participated are all aware of Frank's misdeeds. If they haven't removed Frank's name from the records by now, I doubt that they are going to do it at all.
If you want to email the RDs to lobby for his removal from the records for the sake of the sanctity of the historical record, I have no qualms with that.
But, while I don't think that the top age group finishers who were bumped by Frank are the only victims of Frank's cheating, I think they are the the only ones who have been damaged enough such that they would be justified in publicly seeking further redress.
I think anything much beyond that is simply us wanting vengeance (for lack of a better word) for Frank's violation of our senses of order, propriety and fairness.
I think acting as if his family's words and actions actually really matter in any way, much less in such a meaningful way as to require us to somehow keep the light shining on Frank's misdeeds stems from the same desire for vengeance.
We took our shot. We were part of having him DQd from LA. We were part of having his cheating widely publicized in mainstream media. He cheated one last time by taking his own life so as to avoid having to deal with the ongoing ramifications of his past cheating, and, in doing so, he removed the possibility of him ever cheating again. It's just hard for me to justify ongoing efforts to keep a spotlight on Frank at this point, or to justify that we, as a running communitiy, are still somehow significantly aggrieved.
There are some real optimists out there, who think LetsRun is going to be happy about cheating. Rosie Ruiz probably only got an obituary in WAPO (a month late) because it was covered here wall-to-wall.