I’m not trying to be facetious, but why? I was an untrained 14 year old when I started with a couple seasons of rec league baseball under my belt. I wasn’t a particularly active kid but I was skinny, so maybe that helped?
He was, from what I can tell, a pretty serious cyclist who took up running later in life. He had a pretty solid head start on me. Maybe one would expect his initial times to be better, but it does take time to develop running mechanics/economy.
Google what happens to the human body around 40: muscle attrition, faster weight gain, decreased bone density, lower testosterone levels, to name a few. Beyond that, there is accumulated wear-and-tear, especially in SirPoc's case of being an active cyclist. This doesn't even begin to touch on the lifestyle and general stress level differences.
There is a very clear, objective advantage to running a 5k as a teenager vs as a 40-year-old. You might not be trying to be facetious, but you are certainly feigning ignorance of a very obvious comparison.
I’m not trying to be facetious, but why? I was an untrained 14 year old when I started with a couple seasons of rec league baseball under my belt. I wasn’t a particularly active kid but I was skinny, so maybe that helped?
He was, from what I can tell, a pretty serious cyclist who took up running later in life. He had a pretty solid head start on me. Maybe one would expect his initial times to be better, but it does take time to develop running mechanics/economy.
Google what happens to the human body around 40: muscle attrition, faster weight gain, decreased bone density, lower testosterone levels, to name a few. Beyond that, there is accumulated wear-and-tear, especially in SirPoc's case of being an active cyclist. This doesn't even begin to touch on the lifestyle and general stress level differences.
There is a very clear, objective advantage to running a 5k as a teenager vs as a 40-year-old. You might not be trying to be facetious, but you are certainly feigning ignorance of a very obvious comparison.
(On a different device so had to update my name.)
I hear what you’re saying about aging. I’m 43, and while I ran 15:20 on the track after 40 (thanks super shoes!), I’ve definitely had to lift more, eat better, and rest more intelligently.
I think my bigger question is why his progress is considered extraordinary. (I’m not trolling, I’m not being ignorant, I’m genuinely working through this.) He had an extensive background in an endurance sport that can’t be ignored. He understands how to work/train as shown by his time trial prowess. Yes, he took a break before starting running, but his “genetic potential” (unscientific term of course, substitute your own as necessary) has been shown. Someone who switches to running, gradually builds running muscles and atrophies cycling muscles (anyone who has done both knows how different they are) through consistent training should be able to reach a similar genetic potential shown in the other discipline.
Now I understand that the point of the training is not to overwork so that you can put in years of consistent training. And I think his improvement and dedication are to be commended, but coming in as an outsider, I don’t find it at all surprising.
I'm not adding to the recent conversation here. This is something that reading about this method that I'm curious about.
At the beginning of the thread Sirpoc mentions his belief that he's overweight for a runner but isn't losing or gaining weight anymore. Has this changed at all? Obviously this method is very effective, but I'm wondering his gains of this method could have been amplified by steady weight loss. I'm not in any way trying to discredit the method and I think that it works. Also, to clarify, I don't think that weight necessarily impacts performance that much.
This is something I wondered about on Strava. I asked him this. It's on a run of his from maybe quite a number of months ago, he usually replies openly, I guess he gets so many questions it's just a matter of if he sees it.
When he started running he was around 65kg and is 173cm. He quite quickly in the first number of months running dropped weight to around 61kg and +-1kg there since. He said at Christmas he went back up to 63kg recently but blamed it on beer and overeating. He replied again saying cycling he was around 58-59kg, but it was just too hard to get back down to that peak racing weight. That lines up really to the problems of being old and I guess his diet.
I would guess it's a small fator in the early days, but nothing major. We are not talking fat guy go skinny, just someone who started with a few extra kg for their height they didn't need most probably. Most runners in that kind of shape with 3-4kg or so to lose of fat, it usually has gone quite quickly.
I realise I spend now much too much time snooping on Strava that I know the answer to this.
The more pertinent question I am interested in is how much was his cycling background worth? This I do not know answer to and never seen an answer. Note, it was 4 years between cycling quit and starting running, direct from him on podcast and he did nothing in-between.
Is it worth anything? I would say yes, but also if it did, you would think why he did suck so bad to begin with? Earliest personal TT was very slow and even after a number of months training he sucked a bit and was running +21 minute for a parkrun. From the time frame, he was already running 6 month.
This is the biggest curiosity to me, as someone else mentioned. I think he mentioned that his untrained cycling FTP is 160w. This is very, very low. Maybe his secret power is he responds better to training stimulation more than the average person?
has anyone from this thread attempted an intentional caloric deficit while doing this training and still progressed while managing to drop a couple unnecessary kilos? probably have 4kg to get to an ideal weight, but don't want to sacrifice the aerobic gains.
Honey, wake up. New skippable chunk of NSA thread just dropped.
Much like the so called boom and bust cycle, this thread goes through it's own cycle. Sirpoc will drop some sort of performance and we can all rightly mark out again. Good to see shirtboy make his return to the ring. Always puts his opponents firmly against the ropes. The thread enforcer.
I hear what you’re saying about aging. I’m 43, and while I ran 15:20 on the track after 40 (thanks super shoes!), I’ve definitely had to lift more, eat better, and rest more intelligently.
I think my bigger question is why his progress is considered extraordinary. (I’m not trolling, I’m not being ignorant, I’m genuinely working through this.) He had an extensive background in an endurance sport that can’t be ignored. He understands how to work/train as shown by his time trial prowess. Yes, he took a break before starting running, but his “genetic potential” (unscientific term of course, substitute your own as necessary) has been shown. Someone who switches to running, gradually builds running muscles and atrophies cycling muscles (anyone who has done both knows how different they are) through consistent training should be able to reach a similar genetic potential shown in the other discipline.
Now I understand that the point of the training is not to overwork so that you can put in years of consistent training. And I think his improvement and dedication are to be commended, but coming in as an outsider, I don’t find it at all surprising.
It's pretty rare anyone ever gets into their 40s and keeps pbing on this level. For 99% of us that's a mere pipe dream. Let alone running mid 30 for a 10k or a 2:24 in your first marathon. It's pretty rare, whatever you have done before in another sport.
It's even more rare for someone to have continually posted for a good couple of years now, be very gracious with their time and help us all along on the same journey. Most of us are here because we are appreciative of that. I would think, most people would agree for a large prooolf older runners this might be the most important LRC thing they have ever come across. I don't think that's a particularly bold statement.
I'm under no illusions I will ever run a 2:24 marathon, probably a 2:20 or more and probably smash through the 15 minute barrier. That will not happen to me. It will not happen to 99% of us. But to see someone's journey laid out, you know what? it gives everyone some hope, especially as it all seems to make sense whatever the reasons or science behind it, it's a clear plan, formula, whatever you want to call it, that for a huge general amount of the running hobby jogging population, seems to work.
People can post all they want. This is nothing new. This is dumb . A coach wouldn't prescribe this. I was doing this first (of course in which they then fail to provide their own training). But at the end of the day, nobody did, here we are. People drop in and out of this thread trying to create their own narrative. Two things ring true to me. Sirpoc seems to stay out of it and just do his own thing and get on with his regular and normal life, and secondly, the thread will always rumble on and pick up pace as more and more people replicate their own version of success.
I hope sirpoc enters the 5k masters champs at Battersea and wins the British champs. In fact, I hope he is reading this and enters ASAP. If how he started at the start of this thread to that being the end point isn't surprising to people, then I don't know what is.
I hope sirpoc enters the 5k masters champs at Battersea and wins the British champs. In fact, I hope he is reading this and enters ASAP. If how he started at the start of this thread to that being the end point isn't surprising to people, then I don't know what is.
he gets a weekly 'delicate' reminder about Battersea Park dont you worry!
Thank you to a few of you yesterday I was able to document his whole 15 week training block by time. His highest week was 8 hours and 50 minutes, 530 minutes, and lowest was 389 (6:29) during his 10k week.
If I were to start out this 15 week block, that puts me at July 28th starting out. The most I've done in a week is 385 minutes, 6:25. I don't think it would be in my best interest to try to hit sirpoc's minutes. What would be appropriate to scale it down to, 80%, 90% of his minutes? The goal here is sub 3 hours.
Also currently suffering in the heat and humidity of the south east. Even starting first rep or two really conservative, I still suffer at the end and have bailed out of a few workouts. Any tips? I'm at the point I might just run to keep a base and drop NSA until the fall, but I really don't want to do that as I've started NSA in January.
Thank you to a few of you yesterday I was able to document his whole 15 week training block by time. His highest week was 8 hours and 50 minutes, 530 minutes, and lowest was 389 (6:29) during his 10k week.
If I were to start out this 15 week block, that puts me at July 28th starting out. The most I've done in a week is 385 minutes, 6:25. I don't think it would be in my best interest to try to hit sirpoc's minutes. What would be appropriate to scale it down to, 80%, 90% of his minutes? The goal here is sub 3 hours.
Also currently suffering in the heat and humidity of the south east. Even starting first rep or two really conservative, I still suffer at the end and have bailed out of a few workouts. Any tips? I'm at the point I might just run to keep a base and drop NSA until the fall, but I really don't want to do that as I've started NSA in January.
How are you adjusting your subT paces to account for the rough conditions? Have you compared your HR during recent workouts vs prior ones? That might give you a sense for how much to adjustment you might need to make in the hot conditions.
I don't necessarily think you need to stop doing workouts entirely, but don't take any risks in the heat.
Thank you to a few of you yesterday I was able to document his whole 15 week training block by time. His highest week was 8 hours and 50 minutes, 530 minutes, and lowest was 389 (6:29) during his 10k week.
If I were to start out this 15 week block, that puts me at July 28th starting out. The most I've done in a week is 385 minutes, 6:25. I don't think it would be in my best interest to try to hit sirpoc's minutes. What would be appropriate to scale it down to, 80%, 90% of his minutes? The goal here is sub 3 hours.
Also currently suffering in the heat and humidity of the south east. Even starting first rep or two really conservative, I still suffer at the end and have bailed out of a few workouts. Any tips? I'm at the point I might just run to keep a base and drop NSA until the fall, but I really don't want to do that as I've started NSA in January.
How are you adjusting your subT paces to account for the rough conditions? Have you compared your HR during recent workouts vs prior ones? That might give you a sense for how much to adjustment you might need to make in the hot conditions.
I don't necessarily think you need to stop doing workouts entirely, but don't take any risks in the heat.
been adjusting goal paces by 10% slower. HR is pretty low on first rep or two, but skyrockets and the last rep is a bit forced, or workout dropped all together. HR on first rep is like 150ish, and last reps can hit 182+, max HR is 202. When I did subT in normal weather typically my first rep was a higher HR than 150
been adjusting goal paces by 10% slower. HR is pretty low on first rep or two, but skyrockets and the last rep is a bit forced, or workout dropped all together. HR on first rep is like 150ish, and last reps can hit 182+, max HR is 202. When I did subT in normal weather typically my first rep was a higher HR than 150
Extreme heat + high humidity can be killer. If you've made adjustments, then maybe it's reasonable to ease off some of the workouts while you're in the heat wave. Or try to get access to a treadmill?
I intended to start integrating subT recently, I've been in the building phase for a couple months, but decided against it due to the same heatwave. I'm no expert, but shortening or skipping workouts for a few weeks won't have drastic affect as long as you're still consistently on your feet.
been adjusting goal paces by 10% slower. HR is pretty low on first rep or two, but skyrockets and the last rep is a bit forced, or workout dropped all together. HR on first rep is like 150ish, and last reps can hit 182+, max HR is 202. When I did subT in normal weather typically my first rep was a higher HR than 150
Extreme heat + high humidity can be killer. If you've made adjustments, then maybe it's reasonable to ease off some of the workouts while you're in the heat wave. Or try to get access to a treadmill?
I intended to start integrating subT recently, I've been in the building phase for a couple months, but decided against it due to the same heatwave. I'm no expert, but shortening or skipping workouts for a few weeks won't have drastic affect as long as you're still consistently on your feet.
I also recognize it might be frustrating when you have a goal race scheduled. Finding what's sustainable for you in the conditions you run in is probably more important in the near term.
Isn't it just a widely understood tenet of exercise physiology? Let's say I do 3 sets of pull-ups with 5 minutes rest, each set to failure, and I end up totaling 30 pull-ups. Alternatively I do a single pull-up every 15 minutes throughout the day until I've done 30 of them to match the volume, or even 40 of them to exceed the volume. The 3 sets to failure cause far more muscle damage.
Granted we are not running to failure, but the same thing is true: more muscle damage occurs the longer we continuously do an exercise. The more rest we insert, the less damage we do. So with threshold workouts (whether just above MLSS or just below it), rest is a method to tweak the aerobic stimulus to muscle damage ratio. By taking rests, aerobic stimulus is lowered but muscle damage is lowered even more.
Looking back at pull-ups, let's say I can do 3x10 w/ 5minutes rest and this causes a lot of muscle damage and is a max effort workout. I might be able to do 4x7 with 2 minutes rest and this isn't that hard because it's those last 3 reps that are really damaging and fatiguing. It's an easier workout and I recover from it faster. Now if I'm trying to build muscle mass, this is misguided, because I actually want the muscle damage. But if we're talking about running a threshold workout, we can't chronically tolerate any more muscle damage than we're able to recover from in time for our next workout. So we've got to make it as easy as it needs to be on our muscles while still trying to maximize the aerobic stimulus. Thus intervals.
Maybe for some well-trained athletes, muscle damage isn't generally the limiting factor when running under MLSS. But it easily can be. So running intervals for MP could be smart.
Just thinking about it, but it seems like everyone knows that running intervals for anything ~10k pace or faster is a given. For some reason as we get near MLSS, there emerges the concept of doing one long continuous effort at pace rather than intervals. And when we slow down further and we're one notch slower than MLSS, this becomes even more common. But I think it's just more efficient training to still do intervals at these intensities. At least in this thread of course that'll be a very popular idea.
Your confusion seems to stem from equating fatigue with muscle damage.
As for breaking things up into intervals when above 10 km pace, that's because you're at or above maximal metabolic steady state (possibly significantly above, if you're a really good runner). At those intensities, insertion of periodic rest periods lets you do more work by mitigating fatigue (not muscle damage). Below that intensity, though, the predominant mechanisms fatigue are different, such that periodic rest periods aren't really necessary.
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.
Your confusion seems to stem from equating fatigue with muscle damage.
As for breaking things up into intervals when above 10 km pace, that's because you're at or above maximal metabolic steady state (possibly significantly above, if you're a really good runner). At those intensities, insertion of periodic rest periods lets you do more work by mitigating fatigue (not muscle damage). Below that intensity, though, the predominant mechanisms fatigue are different, such that periodic rest periods aren't really necessary.
The rest periods may not be necessary, but they certainly make the workout feel easier - and anecdotally, easier to recover from.