Sub 3HR Fall Marathon Thread - The quest for less amateur glory begins?

Sorry for the delayed response, Northern lights runner!

I've never run a solo sub-3, but I certainly can relate to your struggle. My performances at shorter distances are better than my marathon performances according to the race pace equivalency charts, and I'm drawn to the marathon almost because it doesn't suit me well. It's a challenge that requires a full commitment and a wide range of variables coming together on one particular day. Everything from weather, course characteristics, illness, injury, overall fitness, and mental fortitude -- what I like to call "balls" -- play a part in this equation, and when you're riding that sub-3 line, there is no margin for error. There's nothing like putting six months to a year's worth of hard effort on the line and blowing it all away in one masochistic, devastating 26.2 mile journey that leaves your body a wreck for weeks afterward. A marathon will teach you as much about your character as it will your body.

Kudos to you for finding a way to achieve your dream by taking one of the variables into your own hands: the timing of the race. Life can deal unexpected surprises, and things like an untimely cold can make the difference between achieving your goals and a DNF. One thing is certain, and that is that we all have a limited number of attempts to reach our goals, and that is particularly apparent with the marathon.

Keep up the good fight, Northern lights runner! At 47, I haven't lost hope in one more sub-3. I'm not going to let myself get fat this winter, and I'm hoping to hit the Spring with both guns a-blazin'!

Free_the_thigh wrote:

Foot pain has gone away now, mileage is climbing back up (at 38k so far this week, and plan to do 15 tomorrow to finish the week over 50k)

Did my first park run 5k and finished with 19:01. Which is a pr for me (mainly because I’ve never properly raced a 5k). Happy with the result, and good benchmark to improve from.

Anyone have opinions on a good 5k time to achieve before attempting sub 3 (one that signifies I can safely go under 3, like 2:55 or so)?

I’m thinking sub 18 is a good goal before moving up.

Glad to see you're on the mend, Free_the_thigh!! 19:01 is a fine result! "Safely under 3" is the operative phrase. I'm thinking low 18s, maybe high 17s at the minimum? This is going from my own experience. I was around 18:24 when started the training block which resulted in a 2:59:00, so in my mind, that's the minimum I would need to be able to do to achieve a sub3. Everyone's different, though...

For example, check out highhoppingworm, who has just run a spectacular 1:23:05. Congratulations, sir! The fitness gains you've made in a short amount of time are spectacular. You've put in the work and have earned every second of it. Glad to see that things all came together for you and that you're achieving the times that your training has indicated you are capable of achieving! I'm excited to see where this leads you, but if sub-3 isn't on your mind, I don't know what to tell you.

epg0 - Nice sub-3. I can't speak to the BQ part of it because who knows what will happen with that, but anything with a 2 in front of it is impressive in my book. Boston wouldn't be as much fun to get into if it didn't take a bit of effort to get in there! If this isn't the race that gets you in, the next one will!

Here is this week's training.

Stats: 34M/6'2"/180 lbs/Running since June

Goal Race: Hyannis Marathon on 2/23/2020

Goal Time: Thinking sub-3 but will refine goal in January

Training Plan: Daniels 2Q/VDOT 56

Week ending 11/10:

Monday 11/4: 10E. 7:52 avg. HR was up a bit following hard Sunday effort. Probably should have slowed down more.

Tuesday 11/5: 8E. 7:45 avg. HR was under 150 the whole run. Felt recovered.

**Wednesday 11/6: Q2**

4E+5x1000 w/ 600 E jog+4x400 w/ 400 E jog+2E. 13.5 miles total. Overall Avg. 7:11.

I wanted to hit around 3:30 for the 1ks and 80s for the 400s and keep the jogs honest. Overall I was a little fast on the intervals and a little slow on the jogs but am pleased with the effort. It didn’t take too much out of me ahead of a HM fitness check on Sunday.

1000s were: 3:29/3:25/3:30/3:25/3:20. Jogs were 3:00-3:20.

400s were: 1:15/1:15/1:17/1:15. Jogs were 2:00-2:30.

Thursday 11/7: 8E. Avg. 7:37. Felt good but am finding HR is elevated on E runs day after Q work.

Friday 11/8: 6E. Avg. 7:22. Avg. Legs felt good. Throat a little scratchy. HR was better under control.

Saturday 11/9: 6E. Avg. 7:28. Avg. Throat marginally better. Legs felt great.

Sunday 11/10: Q1 replaced with HM race

Miles: 1.5 w/u+13.1+ 1 c/d

I drove down to Manchester on Saturday night after having dinner with my wife, mom and son and giving my son a bath. I wanted to make sure to get a good night sleep and the hotel was literally across the street from the start line so it really made morning logistics easy. I got to the hotel around 7:45, arranged for a late check-out the next day and watched some college football before falling asleep at 9:30.

I woke up naturally at 5:30AM, took a shower and arranged my things. Then I got back in bed and waited for my breakfast to be delivered and watched School of Rock which started at 6AM. Breakfast arrived and I feasted on Coffee, oatmeal w/ . dried fruit and also added some of the peanut butter I had brought. It was delicious. Following breakfast I got dressed for the day, headed out to get my bib and then returned to my room for another 40 minutes or so.

It was 29 degrees and was supposed to go up to 35 or so by the time the race finished. I donned my race outfit of long tights, SmartWool socks, a long-T and some thin gloves. I put on my Next %s and a jacket and headed out the door for a warm-up. I jogged 1.5 miles or so at 7:20 pace, ran back to the gear check to get rid of my jacket and headed up to the corral. I lined up in the second row and waited for the gun.

Miles 1-4:

When the gun went off people went out like bats out of hell. I clomped along at what I thought was 6:40-6:50 pace and tried to relax. The first mile was the only flat mile on the course it turns out and I tried to find some folks to run with. As I approached a couple of different groups ahead I realized they were already slowing dramatically and saw a group of 5-10 people out front pulling away from me. I was in no-mans land and would remain pretty much completely alone for the remainder of the race. The missed the first mile split but glanced at my watch and saw 6:12 flash by. Whoops. Still, I felt good, breathing was under control so I decided to just kind of go with it. 2 mile split was 12:46 on my stop watch and had a pretty decent incline in it. Miles 3 and 4 were mostly rolling with a HUGE downhill in mile 3. This was not the kind of downhill that allows you to recover, rather it is the kind of downhill that is terrifyingly steep and hurts ones quads with each step. Splits on my stopwatch were 6:09 and 6:16. At 4 miles I performed a check-in on myself. Legs felt good, breathing felt controlled. I felt like I believe I should have felt 4 miles into a HM. Definitely working but not yet really feeling it.

Miles 5-8:

Starting at mile 5 the course started to get tough. The elevation gains were not particularly significant but it felt like the entire 4 mile stretch was a series of long gradual hills followed by incredibly steep downhills to pay back the elevation I worked so hard to gain. All-in-all I never really felt like I was able to get in a groove or recover from the various climbs. There was also a weird .5m section that was on a dirt trail through the trees with rapid ups, downs and turns. My Next %s were definitely not up to the uneven terrain. I thought I was going to flying off the trail at a couple of points. This proved to be physically and mentally draining. At mile 8 I started to question if I was going to be able to hold on. Splits for this section were 6:26/6:27/6:35/6:37 on my stopwatch. Surprisingly my heart rate was a steady 174 BPM in this section. I thought I was working harder than that. I took a Maurten 100 carb/100 caff at mile 6 which did help a bit.

Miles 9-12:

The first half of mile 9 was more of the same, rolling hills. Mile 9.5 to 10.5 was an important time for me. I knew that if I could just make it to mile 12 the last 1.1 was completely downhill up to the last .1 miles where I would have the visual stimulus of the finish line. This section was also slightly downhill and straight which allowed me to get my act together ahead of what I knew was about to be a grueling climb. I managed to collect myself, get into a solid rhythm and get my mind situated for one more long hard climb. Miles 10.5 - 12 were just horrible. 10.5 - 11.5 was a long and sometimes steep climb with multiple false peaks. I was really burning at the top and starting to get a little bit dizzy. My vision was getting fuzzy and I was genuinely worried about myself for a moment. Coming off this hill there was a brief downhill followed by a short but very steep climb from 11.5-12 miles. An older gentleman came up behind me on this hill and I attached myself to him until we hit the top and then he took off. I wasn't feeling up to going with him so I focused on my race. Whoever you are, thank you for pulling me up that hill! You helped a man in need! Splits for this section were 6:37/6:17/6:32 and then I just gave up messing with my Apple watch as I was way too tired to play around with the touch interface. Strava had that last mile at 6:08.

The finish:

Coming off the top of the hill I looked down and saw a beautiful sight. It was a long gradual downhill that was completely straight. I also glanced at my watch and saw that I likely had 1:25 in the bag. I was really gassed at this point but knew that I could hang on for a mile of easy terrain. I focused on keeping my form, running in a straight line and not missing turn to the finish. Physically this section didn't feel too hard. I was working but was certainly not all out. I did notice my vision did really . start to go. I was having trouble seeing well. I think it was a combination of the cold sweat in my eyes and the exertion. I turned into the finish and headed for home. The announcer said my name as I was finishing which was pretty cool. I also saw the clock tick over 1:23 on my way into the finish which was both a bummer but also exciting. I had set a 10 minute PR over my HM less than a month prior. The official time was 1:23:05. I finished 6th overall and won my age group which scored me a pretty cool mug. I cooled down a mile and headed to lunch with my family.

Total on the week: 67 miles

Awesome run and week HHW. I didn’t want to jinx you but I was like this guy is going to run super-fast. Your training has blown away anything I’ve done in discipline and volume, so not surprised you hit a great time on what seems like a rough course that might add a couple minutes on flatter, fast one. You’re in great position to run a huge marathon. Keep it rolling!

epg0: Congratulations to the sub 3! Yet another success story in this thread. Well done. Might not be enough to get into Boston, but you get there eventually. Good luck!

highhoppingworm: There you go! That's an awesome performance and more in par with your level of fitness that the race you did a month ago. Really great running! And if the course was hilly there's definitely more to come. Just try to stay on the right side of total training load. You need to back down a little after a while to let the body absorb everything before you add more stress. It is too easy to fall into the trap of looking at running as a linear progression thing..

Well I ran in the Indy Monumental Marathon on Saturday so thought I'd come back and share the result. Ended up running a 2:58:55 with splits of 1:29:19/1:29:37. I felt really strong the whole way and was just waiting until I fell apart and my legs gave out but it never happened which was a huge change from my marathon last year. Thank you to everyone who told me I could do it and gave me the confidence I needed!

MaybeSub3 wrote:

Well I ran in the Indy Monumental Marathon on Saturday so thought I'd come back and share the result. Ended up running a 2:58:55 with splits of 1:29:19/1:29:37. I felt really strong the whole way and was just waiting until I fell apart and my legs gave out but it never happened which was a huge change from my marathon last year. Thank you to everyone who told me I could do it and gave me the confidence I needed!

Congrats on the sub 3 at Indy!

You finished 20 seconds ahead of me. The last hour and into the wind was brutal for me. I was able to hang on, but felt the exact same way. I was just waiting for the body to cramp and start shutting down at anytime in that last 5k

epg0 wrote:

MaybeSub3 wrote:

Well I ran in the Indy Monumental Marathon on Saturday so thought I'd come back and share the result. Ended up running a 2:58:55 with splits of 1:29:19/1:29:37. I felt really strong the whole way and was just waiting until I fell apart and my legs gave out but it never happened which was a huge change from my marathon last year. Thank you to everyone who told me I could do it and gave me the confidence I needed!

Congrats on the sub 3 at Indy!

You finished 20 seconds ahead of me. The last hour and into the wind was brutal for me. I was able to hang on, but felt the exact same way. I was just waiting for the body to cramp and start shutting down at anytime in that last 5k

Thanks you too! Yeah the wind was a little rough at times for sure but it definitely helped having the 3:00 pace group to shield some of it. I caught up to that group around mile 10 or so and stayed with the pacers pretty much the rest of the way. Around mile 22 or 23 I felt so good that I actually had the thought of picking up the pace but I knew a lot could go wrong in those final miles so I just stuck with the pacers and I'm glad I did because at 25 my legs were feeling it. Luckily I was able to hang on and finish strong.

MaybeSub3 wrote:

Well I ran in the Indy Monumental Marathon on Saturday so thought I'd come back and share the result. Ended up running a 2:58:55 with splits of 1:29:19/1:29:37. I felt really strong the whole way and was just waiting until I fell apart and my legs gave out but it never happened which was a huge change from my marathon last year. Thank you to everyone who told me I could do it and gave me the confidence I needed!

Heeeayalllll yeaya, MaybeSub3!! I was wondering about you!!

Might as well change that handle to "Sub3 4Life" now!!!

Nice job!!!

MaybeSub3 wrote:

Well I ran in the Indy Monumental Marathon on Saturday so thought I'd come back and share the result. Ended up running a 2:58:55 with splits of 1:29:19/1:29:37.

Yeah!!! Congratulations!! You went for it and you executed! That's really impressive. Good job!

Official results put my 5k actually at 18:57.

I’m thinking high 17s as well. Most online calculators put that time as equivalent to a 2:50/2:55 marathon, which would give me a buffer for their optimism.

Mid 18s, might be enough, but sub 18 would be a more satisfying result. I ran this last 5k coming off marathon training with very little 5k specific work, so hopefully the drop to 18:30 is quick, but may need to work for the next 30 second drop.

After a sub 18, I’ll try and get a 37 low 10k and then either start prepping for a sub 1:24 half or another sub 3 attempt

What? Indianapolis Monumental Marathon

When? 11/9/2019

How far? 26.2 miles

Goals

| A |BQ (

What? Indianapolis Monumental Marathon

When? 11/9/2019

How far? 26.2 miles

Training

I trained for triathlon (70.3) most of the year. I then did a 6 week base build to get my MPW up to 40ish before starting Pfitz 12/55

Pre-race

All of the big hotels are all right around the starting line of the race. The weather was 27 degrees (19 with wind chill) at the start. It was really nice to hang out in the lobby of the hotel and walk over to the corrals to do a quick warm up right before the race.

Miles [1] to [6.5]

I lined up in between the 3:00 and 3:05 pacers and the 3:00 people got away quick. I was zigzagging and pushing my way through to get back in line with that group. We started out quick with a 6:34 for the first mile. The next few were 6:41, 6:38, 6:37, 6:43, and 6:43. There was no wind, pretty flat, and I remained pretty much in control.

Miles [6.5] to [13.1]

After about 6.5 miles, I noticed the mile markers on the course were slowly slipping away from what my watch was telling me. I was running with a Stryd footpod for pace and distance, which is generally considered very accurate compared to GPS. I was trying to keep about a every 4 mile cadence to take a GU Roctane. I was still feeling pretty good at this point and our group clocked off a 1:29:15 for the first half. According to my watch paces, I was still moving faster than I thought I could sustain: 6:39, 6:33, 6:38, 6:39, 6:38, 6:37

Miles [13.1] to [19.5]

This is where I started to feel the fatigue set in. The wind was 10-15ish miles SSW which was directly at us for most of the back half. Any elevation that this course had, was also on the back half. Around mile 19 I could feel my legs starting to get heavy, and my arms were starting to get harder to move. It was warming up, probably to around 35 degrees at this point, so the wind at least did not make me feel much colder. The discrepancy with my watch and the mile markers on the course really started to mess with me here ...I was about .65 off. I just kept telling myself to hold on for one more hour. My pace slowed down a bit at this time due to the elevation and wind. Paces for this section: 6:46, 6:36, 6:41, 6:46 6:41. 6:33, 6:36

Miles [19.5] to [26.2]

The pacers were doing a great job here. They went out in 1:29:15 and were on pace for another 1:29:15. We still had a group of 20 of us hanging around with some pushing forward and some falling behind at this point. I tried to follow the pacers line to avoid extending my gap of running longer. I could not line up my GU every 4 miles, so at this point I was short about 1 GU from where I thought I would be at this point due to where water stations were located. I cracked my final GU open and tried to slosh is around in my mouth to get through. I had 0 energy left to try and make a final push in the last 5k. I was way to close to the goal 3 hours to cramp up at the very end so stayed steady. I saw the finish line and pushed ahead of the 3:00 pacer by about 15 seconds, and finished in 3:59:14. Final distance was 26.96 miles with a 6:39 pace (6:45, 6:44, 6:39, 6:36, 6:39, 6:32, 6:29 (final .96))

Post-race thoughts

I had a 21 min PR from last October at the Chicago Marathon. My year mostly consisted of triathlon training except this final 12 weeks of Pfitz 12/55. I was extremely happy with the sub 3. The ultimate goal was to qualify for Boston, but based on last years cutoff, I do not think that will happen unless the field is increased. I need to learn how to not tack on extra miles by zigzagging.

What's next?

I really want to take another run at a BQ during this cycle, but I am already signed up for two triathlon 70.3s next year (6/21) and (8/30). I could ease up on training for either of them and make a marathon an A race, but no idea where to fit it in to be in any peak shape.

Epg0 - congrats on a great time in what seemed like difficult conditions - let’s be honest here that wind and other factors can make a huge difference - your 2:59 in ideal conditions could be a 2:55 or lower! You seem to have caught the bug - and I think two 70.3s May burn you out! As someone who used to do a lot more triathlons including a few sub 5 hour 70.3s, I find running to be more satisfying throughout the year (more sustainable) as 10 hours a week yields (better) relative results. I feel like being competitive in 70.3 means 12-15 for a while...I’ve switched to dedicating a triathlon “season” as a short 8 week stint from June - July to race a sprint and maybe an Olympic.

Highhoppingworm woah 1:23!!! You’ve been running since June?!? You have some serious talent, shoot for sub 2:55 in Feb for sure.

Maybesub3 change that name! Great effort

runnerchef wrote:

Epg0 - congrats on a great time in what seemed like difficult conditions - let’s be honest here that wind and other factors can make a huge difference - your 2:59 in ideal conditions could be a 2:55 or lower! You seem to have caught the bug - and I think two 70.3s May burn you out! As someone who used to do a lot more triathlons including a few sub 5 hour 70.3s, I find running to be more satisfying throughout the year (more sustainable) as 10 hours a week yields (better) relative results. I feel like being competitive in 70.3 means 12-15 for a while...I’ve switched to dedicating a triathlon “season” as a short 8 week stint from June - July to race a sprint and maybe an Olympic.

Thanks. I think you hit the nail on the head. The 2:59 was more satisfying then the 5 hours 70.3s I've done and the amount of training was way less.

I originally only signed up for the earlier one, but then a large group convinced me on the second. I'm wondering if I can just keep triathlon training in maintenance mode or even less than that, and just focus on another late season marathon.

totally get it - sounds like you've got a nice social thing going on with triathlons as well...maybe race the first one, participate in the second and go for another marathon...OR, convince the group to do an olympic later in the year, so that you really can just "maintain" for and still race.

So, I have now rested from my marathon and started my new quest for 2020 which will be trying to PR on the half marathon (PR: 1.21.10).

My plan is to do a base phase that include a T run every week and the rest is just commuter trots and 13-16mi long runs until end of the year, then hit a made-up Daniels plan for 15wks and see what I can do early spring. If the program feels good, I go for another cycle and see where that takes me. Focus will now switch from MP to T and some I intervals. Psyched!

Race plan: prauge half end of march, gotenborg half in may (can be bad due to pollen issues) and also whatever I feel like. Some 10ks etc to get use to acute suffering...

Training so far after marathon:

1wk rest

38mi easy

44mi including a 5mi T run (6'16 on treadmill) and a long run of 13mi.

This week I'll reduce the speed on my commuting runs in order to add more mileage to see how I feel. If that works, I'll try to up my milage a bit over the winter to say 50mi/wk.

Good plan and great goal - we have very similar goals and approaches - 2020 for me will be a focus on the HM as well. Plan on continuing to be "unstructured" through the end of November and then ramp back up for a February 22nd HM. The goal time there is 1:18 and hope to end 2020 with a 1:16 effort. We will see!

Thanks RC. I am going to train like a low 2:50s guy and hope I achieve sub-3 along the way. Who knows maybe I will surprise myself. Definitely need to re-evaluate based on January fitness instead of where I am right now.