2017 reloaded. got it? wrote:
2017 reloaded. got it? wrote:
you mean photo 281164497 from marathonfoto.com?
type in for runner bib 1107. photo 41/41.
frank standing there next to the course and playing with his smartphone, i guess.
actually the la marathon 2017.
That was after he finished.
The Mooch wrote:
RossiCheated wrote:
I’m not desperate for there to be an accomplice. I’m just smart enough to know that proof of one thing does not eliminate other possibilities. He cheated for a decade. He cheated in relays. He cheated with friends in the races. He cheated with his son in the race. He cheated bike-friendly and non-friendly courses.
To think that a photo of him on a bike (great find!) eliminates the possibility of accomplices or enablers takes a special kind of stupid. No offense.
Do you have any experience on a bicycle? It would be incredibly easy to achieve these cheating feat on bike. The guy has an athletic background (allegedly -- has his athletic background actually been established?). I've had very out-of-shape friends that would be unable to run one mile ride alongside me during long runs without any issues or real exertion. I've also biked courses to cheer people on. There's a ton of time to kill between points. You're riding nearly twice as fast as the runner with 1/10th the exertion.
Try a duathlon workout. You'll be amazed at how much distance you're able to cover running and riding a bicycle, including the back tracking.
The bicycle also completely eliminates traffic and parking issues (unexpected roadblocks, traffic jams, no available parking), which could seriously f-up the best organized cheating plans.
The accomplice theory in the number of races you're talking about is deep throat JFK assassination crazy talk. Might as well attribute his feats of cheating to aliens.
It would appear that you’re new to the thread. Explain who SMU Guy is. Explain who he handed clothes to along the course (which appears in photos). Before he jumped into a race he was very likely talking to a female who then disappeared from the course (there are photos). Who was she?
Look, I’m not dead set that he had active help (although I’m sure there were people who knew he was cheating). But it’s too early to eliminate the possibility that he could have had help in some races.
I’m a career researcher. I see this all the time. People discover A is true and get excited and want to eliminate B and C far too quickly.
We learned one thing from this amazing photo: Frank rode a bike alongside a marathon course on one occasion. That’s an amazing find. But it does not eliminate B and C.
deadesq wrote:
https://iconic-imagecdn.azureedge.net/MFT2017-02/81/808781/1004/0006.jpg?preset=phttps://iconic-imagecdn.azureedge.net/MFT2017-02/81/808781/1004/0009.jpg?preset=phttps://iconic-imagecdn.azureedge.net/MFT2017-02/81/808781/1004/0010.jpg?preset=pit's only a matter of time wrote:
hey, thanks for the shout out! it has been a team effort, with deadesq and derek taking it to the next level. much appreciation for all of their hard work and diligence. and, i second deadesq's encouragement for folks to donate to derek's site. i've donated and hope others will too. and, for Smoove and any other lawyers keeping score, i'm a transactional guy, who likes numbers (and race splits), and, despite being pretty senior in my practice, has an "ability to focus on details and willingness to dig into diligence."
Here is the Google Street view of the spot.
https://imgur.com/a/YpGpS4bThat stairway goes down to the bike path below, next to the lake. Where we saw Frank running in 2015.
https://iconic-imagecdn.azureedge.net/MFT2015-02/82/774182/1005/0018.jpg?preset=pHmmm…any questions?
Note that in deadesq's latest find the sequence starts with Frank stood at the top of a flight of steps that connects the marathon course to a cycle path.
In my opinion the Meza Method was something like this;
Pre-race; leave the bicycle at the first place you can discreetly leave the course. After crossing the start mat step-off where you know the bike is waiting and cycle ahead to a good place to re-join the race, shortly before the next timing mat. After getting your first split leave the course again, jog back along the sidewalk to the bicycle. Cycle ahead to a point shortly before the next timing mat, re-join again, get your split again, jog back again. Repeat as often as necessary.
The belt lets him hide and reveal his bib as necessary as the process goes on.
No accomplices are required, but military precision planning must have been required to get fairly even splits. Everything has to have been very carefully timed, hence Frank frequently checking his watch. Even the race-by-race progression over the years towards the age group world record is well calculated. Clearly he avoided publicity and plaudits to keep a low profile and decrease the chance of being spotted. That could all come later when he retired from running having completed his coup-de-grace by breaking the world record after a long series of marathons with a believable-looking progression, all the races having splits he thought wouldn't arouse suspicion.
RossiCheated wrote:
We’re going to disagree on what is common sense.
Again, he cheated for a decade, on relays, with friends in the races, etc.
Common sense says:
People knew. For sure.
Evidence ? In many cheating threads people have come up with hare-brained schemes about accomplices (Kip and his brother, Rossi must have had a driver- why? can't he drive?), I don't recall a single one being true.
RossiCheated wrote:
We learned one thing from this amazing photo: Frank rode a bike alongside a marathon course on one occasion. That’s an amazing find. But it does not eliminate B and C.
Yes...as I summarised before, it would have been impossible for him to do the 5km splits from 15km -20km -25km even with himself driving a car, knowing the length of time he was at 18.7km where he entered (the minimum time we know of), then shuffling 1.3km to mat, then discreetly leaving course, shuffling 1.3km back etc etc
The Meza Method wrote:
deadesq wrote:
https://iconic-imagecdn.azureedge.net/MFT2017-02/81/808781/1004/0006.jpg?preset=phttps://iconic-imagecdn.azureedge.net/MFT2017-02/81/808781/1004/0009.jpg?preset=phttps://iconic-imagecdn.azureedge.net/MFT2017-02/81/808781/1004/0010.jpg?preset=pHere is the Google Street view of the spot.
https://imgur.com/a/YpGpS4bThat stairway goes down to the bike path below, next to the lake. Where we saw Frank running in 2015.
https://iconic-imagecdn.azureedge.net/MFT2015-02/82/774182/1005/0018.jpg?preset=pHmmm…any questions?
Note that in deadesq's latest find the sequence starts with Frank stood at the top of a flight of steps that connects the marathon course to a cycle path.
In my opinion the Meza Method was something like this;
Pre-race; leave the bicycle at the first place you can discreetly leave the course. After crossing the start mat step-off where you know the bike is waiting and cycle ahead to a good place to re-join the race, shortly before the next timing mat. After getting your first split leave the course again, jog back along the sidewalk to the bicycle. Cycle ahead to a point shortly before the next timing mat, re-join again, get your split again, jog back again. Repeat as often as necessary.
The belt lets him hide and reveal his bib as necessary as the process goes on.
No accomplices are required, but military precision planning must have been required to get fairly even splits. Everything has to have been very carefully timed, hence Frank frequently checking his watch. Even the race-by-race progression over the years towards the age group world record is well calculated. Clearly he avoided publicity and plaudits to keep a low profile and decrease the chance of being spotted. That could all come later when he retired from running having completed his coup-de-grace by breaking the world record after a long series of marathons with a believable-looking progression, all the races having splits he thought wouldn't arouse suspicion.
In general, I’d agree. This fits most of what we know.
Has he ever used a bike?
Yes
Why two watches?
To record total time and split time easily to avoid a “too fast” stretch like the one that apparently got him tossed from CIM.
Why the hiding and revealing of the bib?
To pose as a spectator by hiding it and to make sure he gets recorded by photos with it unrolled.
Why start well after everyone else?
To make that inconspicuous duck off the course early on and so he spends almost no time running alongside people who will ultimately record similar times.
How did he jump in unnoticed?
Fake stretching and then ease in by running parallel on the sidewalk or non-tangent side of the road.
Who is SMU Guy?
Unanswered
Why have the chip on a lanyard?
I’m not sure that’s answered either. My guess is that if he ever encountered a place that he couldn’t slip into the race he would pretend to spectate and just swing the chip over the mat and walk away.
How about a single accomplice and 2 bikes?
The helper hangs out at the first exit point with both bikes they then ride to the next entry point together. Frank stops at the entry point and leaves his bike while the helper rides forward to the next exit point. When the helper gets to the exit point he stages his bike there jogs back to retrieve Franks bike. After Frank hits the timing mat right on target he rejoins his friend. Wash, rinse, repeat the rest of the way and no backtracking required.
On another note....
LRC has a reputation of troll and immature posts, many even in this thread. But, this thread has shown that there is a core of good , honest posters , passionate about their sport and preserving its reputation.
Kudos to the team
Kip and Rossi didn't have other people willing to lie on their behalf and make threats of legal action. Logistically, an accomplice might not have been necessary, but does it seem out of character?
This photo shows it all. Terrible from. Less muscle definition than the 30 year old actually running at pace. Way way way overdressed for the event, and obviously 15-20 lbs heavier than he would need to be to possibly complete a marathon anywhere near 3 hours.
Not actually overdressed. I'm clearly mentally challenged
It seems that Frank Mesa co founded the Aztlan Track Club in 1974 and continues to promote the club through his "accomplishments". FM and Jose Zavala (current Atzlan Athletics CEO) are buds. I wouldn't surprise me to learn that Jose Zavala was aware of his course cutting, but now finds their club in an awkward position.
http://www.aztlanathletics.org/about.html
Aztlan Track Club was founded in 1974 in the East Los Angeles area by Carlos Alfaro and Frank Meza. It operated under the Aztlan Athletic Congress. Frank Meza is currently a medical doctor and coaches Cross Country and Track at Loyola High School. Carlos Alfaro retired after 30 years in the teaching profession. Aztlan Track club transitioned into Aztlan Athletics to offer a wider-range of event management services. Jose Zavala and Carlos Alfaro merged into Aztlan Athletics in 2008, which now oversees and manages multiple running events in the Southern California area. Aztlan Athletics has been represented in Cross Country and Track at regional, state and national championships.
Aztlan Athletics began coordinating running events in 1978 and it is known for laying the foundation for competitive trail running (Aztlan Indian Run at Elysian Park- since 1981). Today, Aztlan Athletics offers 6 unique running experiences and provides event management support to our event partners. We offer a "Grab Bag" of resources including food catering, IT and media production, apparel and awards, registration and timing support, course management and consultation.
Our company's foundation began over 30 years ago. We reach out to promising athletes and offer a select few with subsidized support to be able to compete in Cross Country, and Track and Field at the local and national level. One of our most popular events is the Aztlan Indian Run, which is rated among the top running venues in Southern California. We added two additional running events in 2010, and now have plans to bring two more in 2012. We hope to be able to incorporate an "Elite" field of competitors in at least two running events in the near future. The company's current executive team (Jose Zavala, President & Carlos Alfaro, Vice President) has a combined 60 years of experience as direct-service professionals and in the event management/production industry.
You Don't need to be a detective to figure it out wrote:
https://iconic-imagecdn.azureedge.net/MFT2017-02/81/808781/1004/0010.jpg?preset=pThis photo shows it all. Terrible from. Less muscle definition than the 30 year old actually running at pace. Way way way overdressed for the event, and obviously 15-20 lbs heavier than he would need to be to possibly complete a marathon anywhere near 3 hours.
And, depending on the race, he should be photographed running alongside people who started several minutes ahead of him and he should be moving UP through the field.
As others have noted, his late-start strategy means he sometimes had to pass 700+ people within 10k (different numbers for different races but the point stands) and kept moving UP after that.
Ha!
RossiCheated wrote:
The Meza Method wrote:
Note that in deadesq's latest find the sequence starts with Frank stood at the top of a flight of steps that connects the marathon course to a cycle path.
In my opinion the Meza Method was something like this;
Pre-race; leave the bicycle at the first place you can discreetly leave the course. After crossing the start mat step-off where you know the bike is waiting and cycle ahead to a good place to re-join the race, shortly before the next timing mat. After getting your first split leave the course again, jog back along the sidewalk to the bicycle. Cycle ahead to a point shortly before the next timing mat, re-join again, get your split again, jog back again. Repeat as often as necessary.
The belt lets him hide and reveal his bib as necessary as the process goes on.
No accomplices are required, but military precision planning must have been required to get fairly even splits. Everything has to have been very carefully timed, hence Frank frequently checking his watch. Even the race-by-race progression over the years towards the age group world record is well calculated. Clearly he avoided publicity and plaudits to keep a low profile and decrease the chance of being spotted. That could all come later when he retired from running having completed his coup-de-grace by breaking the world record after a long series of marathons with a believable-looking progression, all the races having splits he thought wouldn't arouse suspicion.
In general, I’d agree. This fits most of what we know.
Has he ever used a bike?
Yes
Why two watches?
To record total time and split time easily to avoid a “too fast” stretch like the one that apparently got him tossed from CIM.
Why the hiding and revealing of the bib?
To pose as a spectator by hiding it and to make sure he gets recorded by photos with it unrolled.
Why start well after everyone else?
To make that inconspicuous duck off the course early on and so he spends almost no time running alongside people who will ultimately record similar times.
How did he jump in unnoticed?
Fake stretching and then ease in by running parallel on the sidewalk or non-tangent side of the road.
Who is SMU Guy?
Unanswered
Why have the chip on a lanyard?
I’m not sure that’s answered either. My guess is that if he ever encountered a place that he couldn’t slip into the race he would pretend to spectate and just swing the chip over the mat and walk away.
I think the lanyard may serve as an additional tool. I’ve noticed some past images where it looks like there’s a small placard type thing or paper tag attached to it. I think he may have the timing mat splits he needs to hit written on this so he can refer to them while he’s skulking off to the side of the course waiting for the right time to cross each timing mat.
So the co-founder of Aztlan has a background in Psychology and Therapy of some sort. I wonder why he didn't step in and do something?
yes, 100% agree, lol
+1
Dear Frank-it's not even the 4th of July but the fireworks have already started and will continue on for some time. Enjoy the show. I hope you and your family/"friends" have a GREAT 4th!!!
Derek-the next $50 is burning a hole in my pocket...I smell another DQ coming up shortly.
On Yahoo Sports this morning:
And it continues to snowball....
Inside Edition doing a story. Not sure if I will talk to them or not.
