Starting to get my workouts dialed in a bit. I think the issue I had at the very beginning of trying this approach was to think of target paces as aspirational rather than rational. I put in a time I was hoping to run and had run close to but had not yet run into lactrace's calculator. The pace targets it spit out proved a bit much for my level of fitness. I think if I had put in a recent actual time I would have had more success implementing this early on.
Sure, if you can recover from it week in and week out then why not. People get a bit hung up on copying sirpocs sessions exactly - he iterated to them as they worked for him based initially off the sessions KI was doing. The main goal is to build CTL in a sustainable way. If you find an hour of work at sub-sub threshold gets the same or more load for lower recovery cost then go for it. Or it may be that you just switch it in now and then to add variety and have fun. The template given however is pretty foolproof.
Yes, I think if you roughly stick into the framework of sirpoc template and you are a hobby jogger, that there is a very good chance you picked the best way to train.
If I could advise anyone to pick a random training plan in the hope it would be optimal, it's not even controversial at this point to suggest this would be top of the list . If nothing else it will teach you about what consistency is.
If you look at the plethora of people at a wide range of abilities, that are all improving on hobby hours after a period of no progress, it's hard to make a case for anything else being a better option. There's a reason why this thread will probably never die, because it's probably the biggest resource to an average hobby runner on the internet.
It's not the magic pill, but it's the best structure to a hobby jogger training I've probably ever seen, if you are willing to run almost everyday and make the most of that on singles.
I was at a run club awhile back (live in the US) and nobody had heard of Jakob or this method. Maybe it is more popular in the UK or Western EUR. So it may be a fringe-y thing on LRC and maybe on reddit, but there are quite a bit of running subreddits and not even all of them have heard of it. Just AdvancedRunning but I hate that subreddit for a lot of reasons lol
Just about everyone , which is a lot, who I have seen successfully implement this have all said the same. Probably not a lot happened, maybe they even got worse and then suddenly around 2-3 months in all hell breaks loose and suddenly you just will do a huge PB.
Definitely put me in that block. I remember being 6-7 weeks and thinking how dumb it was that I got lured in by a scam.
Then I ran a 5k and PBd by around 28 seconds even though the run felt truly terrible and I didn't think I was moving fast. This was week 9 I think of 9 straight weeks, 3 workouts a week, no days off.
I remember reading a similar story awhile back about a guy thinking he got scammed, then went out and ran a huge 10k PR. However he felt like his legs could have done far more but was out of breath. It sounds like it affects people differently.
I am naturally cynical and "too good to be true" stories are a thing, the internet is weird, etc. But it sounds like this is a legit thread. The fact it is 260 pages and hasn't been locked for normal LRC stupidity is amazing. And people are actually mature here lol (mostly)
But why would 3x2 miles at 6:25-6:41 give more load than 1 hour at 6:40 for a sub 3 marathoner?
It doesn't give more load but it should reduce recovery time so that you can more easily (and more importantly more consistently) do it all again in 2 days. That seems you up for higher load over the long term.
I did like the one part a poster mentioned yesterday about doing EZ-subT over and over again: 1) Run well on your subT and look forward to EZ. 2) Then the next day you're looking forward to pushing hard again! (repeat)
I am in the 4th week so far after 2 recovery weeks after my marathon mid April. 4 weeks ago I ran a TT Parkrun in 17:23. Today I ran 16:41 and felt comfortable (relatively for a 5km) with no fade in the last 2km and breathing fairly comfortably until the last km . I think I am a believer. Looking forward to seeing it it can bring me to sub 16.
Is this mileage progression gradual enough? I have experience around 50 mpw with a 3-4 mile "threshold" workout that throughout the cycle progressed in intensity enough to eventually became a VO2 Max workout, at which point my fitness began to regress. Also some experience around 50-60 mpw with a VO2 max workout, 5k race, continuous tempo, 12 mile long run, which in hindsight was a a decent amount too much and not sustainable. It also might be useful to note that I now have the opportunity to slow down my easy runs.
6/1/25: 25 6/9/25: 40, 8 long run 6/17/25:40, 8 long run 6/24/25: 45, 4 LT1, 9 long run 6/30/25: 45, 8 LT1, 9 long run 7/7/25: 45, 8 LT1, 9 long run 7/14/25: 45, 8 LT1, 9 long run 7/21/25: 45, 10 LT1, 9 long run 7/28/25: 45, 10 LT1, 9 long run 8/4/25: 45, 10 LT1, 9 long run 8/11/25: 45, 10 LT1, 9 long run 8/18/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run 8/25/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run 9/1/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run 9/8/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run 9/15/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run, xc race? 9/22/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run 9/29/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run 10/6/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run 10/13/25: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 10/20/25: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 10/27/25: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 11/3/25: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 11/10/25: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 11/17/25: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 11/24/25 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run turkey trot? 12/1/26: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 12/8/26: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 12/15/26: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 12/22/26: 60, 15 LT1, 12 long run 12/29/26: 60, 15 LT1, 12 long run 1/5/26: 60, 15 LT1, 12 long run 1/12/26: 60, 15 LT1, 12 long run 1/19/26: 60, 15 LT1, 13 long run 1/26/26: 60, 15 LT1, 13 long run 2/2/26: 60, 15 LT1, 13 long run 2/9/26: 60, 15 LT1, 13 long run 2/16/26: 60, 15 LT1, 13 long run 2/23/26: 60, 15 LT1, 13 long run, track race? 3/2/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run 3/9/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run 3/16/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run 3/23/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run 3/30/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run, track race? 4/6/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run 4/13/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run 4/20/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run, half marathon?
Is this mileage progression gradual enough? I have experience around 50 mpw with a 3-4 mile "threshold" workout that throughout the cycle progressed in intensity enough to eventually became a VO2 Max workout, at which point my fitness began to regress. Also some experience around 50-60 mpw with a VO2 max workout, 5k race, continuous tempo, 12 mile long run, which in hindsight was a a decent amount too much and not sustainable. It also might be useful to note that I now have the opportunity to slow down my easy runs.
6/1/25: 25 6/9/25: 40, 8 long run 6/17/25:40, 8 long run 6/24/25: 45, 4 LT1, 9 long run 6/30/25: 45, 8 LT1, 9 long run 7/7/25: 45, 8 LT1, 9 long run 7/14/25: 45, 8 LT1, 9 long run 7/21/25: 45, 10 LT1, 9 long run 7/28/25: 45, 10 LT1, 9 long run 8/4/25: 45, 10 LT1, 9 long run 8/11/25: 45, 10 LT1, 9 long run 8/18/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run 8/25/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run 9/1/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run 9/8/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run 9/15/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run, xc race? 9/22/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run 9/29/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run 10/6/25: 50, 12 LT1, 10 long run 10/13/25: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 10/20/25: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 10/27/25: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 11/3/25: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 11/10/25: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 11/17/25: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 11/24/25 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run turkey trot? 12/1/26: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 12/8/26: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 12/15/26: 55, 14 LT1, 11 long run 12/22/26: 60, 15 LT1, 12 long run 12/29/26: 60, 15 LT1, 12 long run 1/5/26: 60, 15 LT1, 12 long run 1/12/26: 60, 15 LT1, 12 long run 1/19/26: 60, 15 LT1, 13 long run 1/26/26: 60, 15 LT1, 13 long run 2/2/26: 60, 15 LT1, 13 long run 2/9/26: 60, 15 LT1, 13 long run 2/16/26: 60, 15 LT1, 13 long run 2/23/26: 60, 15 LT1, 13 long run, track race? 3/2/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run 3/9/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run 3/16/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run 3/23/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run 3/30/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run, track race? 4/6/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run 4/13/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run 4/20/26: 65, 16 LT1, 14 long run, half marathon?
You understand that's not reality, right? You need to provide more modulation in your training to make gains. What you are proposing will not gain the benefits you desire, especially if you are over the age of 30.
You're thinking about this in completely the wrong way. You don't plan your training this far in advance and either hope/guess whether or not the progression is gradual enough and/or effective.
What you should do is find a sustainable starting point, and start measuring/tracking load/CTL, and start measuring performance with a 5k every 4-6 weeks or so. How your CTL has trended and how your performance trends will then inform your decisions about when it's time to increase mileage/pace/load and also by how much.
Writing down a mileage plan that is almost a full year into the future is completely unhelpful and crazy.
I don't want to run a 5k every 4-6 weeks as I don't have easy access to many races and have a logistical issue transporting myself to them. I'm not going to blindly adhere to my plan, and probably won't adhere at all. I just thought it would be nice to know how much I may be running next January, or April.
Right now the actual plan is to do the first 5 weeks of the aforementioned mileage plan, then hold that load until my improvement stops, or significantly slows down, at which point I'd increase my load. I have no idea how long this would take as I haven't done this method before.
I have no idea how rapidly people typically increase load with this method, and wanted to know if this amount of an increase was what I would probably be doing. I suspect this plan will be multiple months off of what I will end up doing. I just wanted to get a clearer picture.
My goals with this method might be slightly different than most people's. I've had a lot of issues consistently improving with other training methods, and thought this might help. I'm not as interested in the benefit that this method provides in it's high load/time ratio. I would also like to improve as quickly as possible (in a sustainable way), and in the scenario (that I will probably come across) where I can maintain training load and still improve, or increase training load to improve at a faster rate, I'd pick the latter.
I am running a 10k tomorrow but I have been training as usual, one day Q, one day E. The 10k is on a Q day and I am just going there because I was offered an entry. My goal race is in late June.
I have recently run a 20:28 5k time trial so I guess I am in shape to run 42-43 for 10k
What would a good use of tomorrow's race be so that I can do another Q day on Tuesday?
5k easy, 5k full effort? LT effort, so around 44-45? Go all out? Something else?
I am running a 10k tomorrow but I have been training as usual, one day Q, one day E. The 10k is on a Q day and I am just going there because I was offered an entry. My goal race is in late June.
I have recently run a 20:28 5k time trial so I guess I am in shape to run 42-43 for 10k
What would a good use of tomorrow's race be so that I can do another Q day on Tuesday?
5k easy, 5k full effort? LT effort, so around 44-45? Go all out? Something else?
Thanks in advance.
10k full send. With super shoes you may be fully recovered by Tuesday anyway. If not, definitely by Thursday.
I’ve been doing this for 5 months exactly as prescribed and had a big breakthrough today. FINALLY, broke sub 20 on a 5K with 19:53. I got close last summer, but the training was killing me and I was falling apart. It really felt like I had a mental hurdle where it was impossible to break 20. I’m 42 years and as silly as it sounds, I thought I was running out of time before I read about this method. I would guess I was in 20:40 shape when I started in December. I also had a big half marathon PR 4 weeks ago @1:30. I was expecting 1:33. I didn’t realize in until after, but the pace I ran the half in matched exactly the pace I’ve been running the 6 minute reps at.
One thing that doesn’t get talked about enough is that training like this is really hard work. There’s a reason CTL continues to go up if you stick with it and stay consistent. Like others have said, the “magic” to this is being able to do it day in and day out and not feel wrecked. I did Pfitz 18/70 last spring and it was miserable. I was in great shape but was completely fried by the time the race came around and underperformed for my fitness level at the time. I feel like I’m actually working just as hard or harder with this approach because I don’t feel much cumulative fatigue overall and have the ability to do every sub T session as planned. Really looking forward to seeing where this goes.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
I am running a 10k tomorrow but I have been training as usual, one day Q, one day E. The 10k is on a Q day and I am just going there because I was offered an entry. My goal race is in late June.
I have recently run a 20:28 5k time trial so I guess I am in shape to run 42-43 for 10k
What would a good use of tomorrow's race be so that I can do another Q day on Tuesday?
5k easy, 5k full effort? LT effort, so around 44-45? Go all out? Something else?
Thanks in advance.
10k full send. With super shoes you may be fully recovered by Tuesday anyway. If not, definitely by Thursday.
I’ve been doing this for 5 months exactly as prescribed and had a big breakthrough today. FINALLY, broke sub 20 on a 5K with 19:53. I got close last summer, but the training was killing me and I was falling apart. It really felt like I had a mental hurdle where it was impossible to break 20. I’m 42 years and as silly as it sounds, I thought I was running out of time before I read about this method. I would guess I was in 20:40 shape when I started in December. I also had a big half marathon PR 4 weeks ago @1:30. I was expecting 1:33. I didn’t realize in until after, but the pace I ran the half in matched exactly the pace I’ve been running the 6 minute reps at.
One thing that doesn’t get talked about enough is that training like this is really hard work. There’s a reason CTL continues to go up if you stick with it and stay consistent. Like others have said, the “magic” to this is being able to do it day in and day out and not feel wrecked. I did Pfitz 18/70 last spring and it was miserable. I was in great shape but was completely fried by the time the race came around and underperformed for my fitness level at the time. I feel like I’m actually working just as hard or harder with this approach because I don’t feel much cumulative fatigue overall and have the ability to do every sub T session as planned. Really looking forward to seeing where this goes.
This is great, congrats mate. I've said before , it feels mentally hard, if not physical. It's also a very solo activity as well, probably prevents running with others on a regular basis as everything is so dialled into your specific fitness.
I actually often sometimes think I wished I hadn't posted two summers ago now. But actually, it's nice to know it might have helped people go beyond where more traditional or textbook training couldn't get them. You are probably in a nice spot, where now, if you can keep finding ways to run just a little more ever so slightly each month or so, you'll just keep on improving. People have to remember how slowly I have chipped away. It's been well over two years now.
Not everyone, but most of us have quite a lot of headroom for this to probably be the safest (although maybe slowest) way to reach as close to that ceiling as we can.
I’ve been doing this for 5 months exactly as prescribed and had a big breakthrough today. FINALLY, broke sub 20 on a 5K with 19:53. I got close last summer, but the training was killing me and I was falling apart. It really felt like I had a mental hurdle where it was impossible to break 20. I’m 42 years and as silly as it sounds, I thought I was running out of time before I read about this method. I would guess I was in 20:40 shape when I started in December. I also had a big half marathon PR 4 weeks ago @1:30. I was expecting 1:33. I didn’t realize in until after, but the pace I ran the half in matched exactly the pace I’ve been running the 6 minute reps at.
One thing that doesn’t get talked about enough is that training like this is really hard work. There’s a reason CTL continues to go up if you stick with it and stay consistent. Like others have said, the “magic” to this is being able to do it day in and day out and not feel wrecked. I did Pfitz 18/70 last spring and it was miserable. I was in great shape but was completely fried by the time the race came around and underperformed for my fitness level at the time. I feel like I’m actually working just as hard or harder with this approach because I don’t feel much cumulative fatigue overall and have the ability to do every sub T session as planned. Really looking forward to seeing where this goes.
If you want to go to the next level, some weekly workouts like 8*800 @ 5k pace on track and alternate that with 10*300 hill reps all out every other week.
Of course there is no such thing as a Norwegian method without doubles but also these things will help you get better also. Any coaching plan for looking to improve a 5k, this will be staple diet. You will thank me later and good luck!
I wouldn't advise Norwegian Singles for anyone, maybe beginners level to get used to running. But it's not something you will see serious runners doing or anyone with success.
If you want to go to the next level, some weekly workouts like 8*800 @ 5k pace on track and alternate that with 10*300 hill reps all out every other week.
Of course there is no such thing as a Norwegian method without doubles but also these things will help you get better also. Any coaching plan for looking to improve a 5k, this will be staple diet. You will thank me later and good luck!
I wouldn't advise Norwegian Singles for anyone, maybe beginners level to get used to running. But it's not something you will see serious runners doing or anyone with success.
I would half agree with this. I haven't read much of the thread but it's one of those general premise threads promising miracles from the general skimming. I think it's good for someone starting out. I do think probably that much vo2 work weekly is overkill. But if you are really specific for a 5k, maybe, that's to the poster vo2 master.
I think if a amateur runner really wants to push their limits, no disrespect to anyone here but there are guys like Ben Felton in particular, maybe Nick Bester but the content has gotten worse lately for him sadly, but who are really pushing the limits of what regular guys can do. That's really the standard I think an amateur could aspire to. Sure, maybe it's a bit more time commitment, but it's probably on the cusp of sub elite and if you want to get there, you need to be working that hard.
As the previous poster pointed out there's obviously no such thing as singles on a Norwegian method, if anyone tells you as such they are a snake oil salesman. Unfortunately, there's so many of them out there in running today.
I’ve been doing this for 5 months exactly as prescribed and had a big breakthrough today. FINALLY, broke sub 20 on a 5K with 19:53. I got close last summer, but the training was killing me and I was falling apart. It really felt like I had a mental hurdle where it was impossible to break 20. I’m 42 years and as silly as it sounds, I thought I was running out of time before I read about this method. I would guess I was in 20:40 shape when I started in December. I also had a big half marathon PR 4 weeks ago @1:30. I was expecting 1:33. I didn’t realize in until after, but the pace I ran the half in matched exactly the pace I’ve been running the 6 minute reps at.
One thing that doesn’t get talked about enough is that training like this is really hard work. There’s a reason CTL continues to go up if you stick with it and stay consistent. Like others have said, the “magic” to this is being able to do it day in and day out and not feel wrecked. I did Pfitz 18/70 last spring and it was miserable. I was in great shape but was completely fried by the time the race came around and underperformed for my fitness level at the time. I feel like I’m actually working just as hard or harder with this approach because I don’t feel much cumulative fatigue overall and have the ability to do every sub T session as planned. Really looking forward to seeing where this goes.
If you want to go to the next level, some weekly workouts like 8*800 @ 5k pace on track and alternate that with 10*300 hill reps all out every other week.
Of course there is no such thing as a Norwegian method without doubles but also these things will help you get better also. Any coaching plan for looking to improve a 5k, this will be staple diet. You will thank me later and good luck!
I wouldn't advise Norwegian Singles for anyone, maybe beginners level to get used to running. But it's not something you will see serious runners doing or anyone with success.
Haha. You share the most basic 5k workout of all time and act like it’s some kind of special secret. Did you read the part where I said I was falling apart last summer? That was exactly the kind of training I was doing. Traditional plans bury me.
If you want to go to the next level, some weekly workouts like 8*800 @ 5k pace on track and alternate that with 10*300 hill reps all out every other week.
Of course there is no such thing as a Norwegian method without doubles but also these things will help you get better also. Any coaching plan for looking to improve a 5k, this will be staple diet. You will thank me later and good luck!
I wouldn't advise Norwegian Singles for anyone, maybe beginners level to get used to running. But it's not something you will see serious runners doing or anyone with success.
I would half agree with this. I haven't read much of the thread but it's one of those general premise threads promising miracles from the general skimming. I think it's good for someone starting out. I do think probably that much vo2 work weekly is overkill. But if you are really specific for a 5k, maybe, that's to the poster vo2 master.
I think if a amateur runner really wants to push their limits, no disrespect to anyone here but there are guys like Ben Felton in particular, maybe Nick Bester but the content has gotten worse lately for him sadly, but who are really pushing the limits of what regular guys can do. That's really the standard I think an amateur could aspire to. Sure, maybe it's a bit more time commitment, but it's probably on the cusp of sub elite and if you want to get there, you need to be working that hard.
As the previous poster pointed out there's obviously no such thing as singles on a Norwegian method, if anyone tells you as such they are a snake oil salesman. Unfortunately, there's so many of them out there in running today.
“I haven’t read much of the thread”, but let me write 3 paragraphs stating my opinion and sharing my extensive knowledge. I really enjoy the people who comment on this thread while completely ignoring the actual content in it and the countless real world success stories people have shared. Thanks for educating us. After hitting a PR that felt out of reach for so long with this, you have convinced me this approach is wrong and I must stop immediately 😂
Yeah but I bet you were forgetting to do strides. That and strength work. Better yet, do 10 strides whilst holding kettle bells at the end of easy days for max gains 😉
This is not for the troll I am replying to, but for anyone reading who genuinely does still feel that 5k pace workouts and hill repeats are necessary to improve over the 5k. It’s not surprising lots of people feel like this, it’s been drilled into them since they first started looking for ways to train. It’s a core belief. And removing a core belief is hard because it makes you question all of your other core beliefs. But there are infinitely more possibilities in the world when you allow your core beliefs to be questioned. It can also help you improve your core beliefs so they are “more correct” (no such thing as absolute truth really). And people who allow their core beliefs to be questioned, who experiment and use trial and error in their day to day lives, not appealing to some higher authority to guide them all the time, are the most enjoyable people to spend time with, and in my opinion they also enjoy their own lives more. Be like these people.