The Vietnam officially ended when Congress stopped funding it. George W. Bush managed to avoid this by hiding funding from Congressional approval during Afghanistan. I get that you don't like it (and am trying to be more civil than argumentative)...but where exactly is democracy failing here? Public sentiment has already turned against the war, after all...
our betrayal of Ukraine and Europe and the world is not democracy failing, it's government making a terrible decision.
democracies make terrible decisions frequently. Bad, but not as bad as voting in the guy who tried to foil democracy and says he'll do it again if given the chance, just better.
Don't conflate the issues.
We're headed into dangerous territory, but which issues exactly am I conflating? I told you how a previous quagmire ended, how one was dragged out off the books, and (I think this was too subtle) predicted how the Ukraine War will end.
I get that we don't agree on US involvement in Ukraine. We're both Americans, so we don't have to.
But...if I can sway you at all: consider these two points:
1) Zelensky is a snake in the grass. Ukraine is *not* a democracy (no free press, no opposition party, forced conscription for males under 60 (!)). Remember when he cozied up to to Trump after the President's "perfect letter?" The war in Ukraine, whether you support it or not, probably isn't winnable. Don't tell Zelensky...he's not having it. He wants NATO membership. How many dead Ukrainians are worth that goal, which is, fundamentally, all Putin opposes?
2) You don't like dictators. I get it. I don't like them, either. But I also don't like proxy wars to topple their regimes when our "interests" become more and more vague. We got involved in Vietnam to stop the spread of communism in SE Asia. The communists won. Now, both you and I can travel there and enjoy the best thing about capitalism, which really won in the end: great food, nice people, and cheap prices (thanks to the strength of the USD). [And hey: it's fundamentally un-American to oppose dictators when they *are on our side.*]
Agip...all is not doom and gloom, even if Putin wins. We might have detente with Russia. I would love cheaper gas...and maybe you can afford the price at the pump rn, but what I would love more is avoiding WWIII. Hope we can agree on that.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Lol so your heels are still dug in deep on the quid pro quo accusations. Even Zelensky denies the quid pro quo accusations and the manuscripts reveal very clearly that Trump never made the military aid contingent on Zelensky's cooperation in an investigation (I'll link the manuscript below and give you the opportunity to provide exact quotes to prove me wrong on this).
FFS zelensky isn't going to make a lifelong enemy of Trump, someone he might need help from! And Zelensky does not want to be accused of interfering with domestic US politics. Come on. You people are even dumber sometimes than you let on.
It's 100% transparent that Trump was doing what he always does - putting his own personal interests way way way ahead of the interests of the nation. And you encourage and enable that corruption. You encourage him to break his oath of office and the Constitution over and over and over.
Which Trump policy was against America's interests?
Do you have any idea or are you just talking out of your *ss as usual?
Lol so your heels are still dug in deep on the quid pro quo accusations. Even Zelensky denies the quid pro quo accusations and the manuscripts reveal very clearly that Trump never made the military aid contingent on Zelensky's cooperation in an investigation (I'll link the manuscript below and give you the opportunity to provide exact quotes to prove me wrong on this).
FFS zelensky isn't going to make a lifelong enemy of Trump, someone he might need help from! And Zelensky does not want to be accused of interfering with domestic US politics. Come on. You people are even dumber sometimes than you let on.
It's 100% transparent that Trump was doing what he always does - putting his own personal interests way way way ahead of the interests of the nation. And you encourage and enable that corruption. You encourage him to break his oath of office and the Constitution over and over and over.
I've looked at the manuscripts and see no evidence of quid pro quo. It's been The manuscripts are right there, you're free to provide evidence of "pressure" being applied. Nor do I see Trump trying to investigate the corruption of a future presidential candidate as "corruption" either. I personally believe that electing a president who has a history of selling his influence is a matter of national concern, but as usual, libs don't think so because it's one of their guys.
There are many reports that she has ridden more than the Trump train. I seem to recall he dismissal from Fox had something to do with her showing crude porn to others.
FFS zelensky isn't going to make a lifelong enemy of Trump, someone he might need help from! And Zelensky does not want to be accused of interfering with domestic US politics. Come on. You people are even dumber sometimes than you let on.
It's 100% transparent that Trump was doing what he always does - putting his own personal interests way way way ahead of the interests of the nation. And you encourage and enable that corruption. You encourage him to break his oath of office and the Constitution over and over and over.
I've looked at the manuscripts and see no evidence of quid pro quo. It's been The manuscripts are right there, you're free to provide evidence of "pressure" being applied. Nor do I see Trump trying to investigate the corruption of a future presidential candidate as "corruption" either. I personally believe that electing a president who has a history of selling his influence is a matter of national concern, but as usual, libs don't think so because it's one of their guys.
our betrayal of Ukraine and Europe and the world is not democracy failing, it's government making a terrible decision.
democracies make terrible decisions frequently. Bad, but not as bad as voting in the guy who tried to foil democracy and says he'll do it again if given the chance, just better.
Don't conflate the issues.
We're headed into dangerous territory, but which issues exactly am I conflating? I told you how a previous quagmire ended, how one was dragged out off the books, and (I think this was too subtle) predicted how the Ukraine War will end.
I get that we don't agree on US involvement in Ukraine. We're both Americans, so we don't have to.
But...if I can sway you at all: consider these two points:
1) Zelensky is a snake in the grass. Ukraine is *not* a democracy (no free press, no opposition party, forced conscription for males under 60 (!)). Remember when he cozied up to to Trump after the President's "perfect letter?" The war in Ukraine, whether you support it or not, probably isn't winnable. Don't tell Zelensky...he's not having it. He wants NATO membership. How many dead Ukrainians are worth that goal, which is, fundamentally, all Putin opposes?
2) You don't like dictators. I get it. I don't like them, either. But I also don't like proxy wars to topple their regimes when our "interests" become more and more vague. We got involved in Vietnam to stop the spread of communism in SE Asia. The communists won. Now, both you and I can travel there and enjoy the best thing about capitalism, which really won in the end: great food, nice people, and cheap prices (thanks to the strength of the USD). [And hey: it's fundamentally un-American to oppose dictators when they *are on our side.*]
Agip...all is not doom and gloom, even if Putin wins. We might have detente with Russia. I would love cheaper gas...and maybe you can afford the price at the pump rn, but what I would love more is avoiding WWIII. Hope we can agree on that.
This is a rational explanation. However, I take issue with the painting of a dictatorship being simply a change of an economic system from Capitalism to communism. The full breath of living under a dictator needs to be measured in oppression of minority views. Oppression of Arts. Oppression of religion. Oppression of freedom of speech. Oppression of protest. And most of all corruption. If you are not in favor of the beloved dictator and those in his approved circle you can't conduct business or make a living.
And also watching the countries national resources and foreign policies become plundered for the good of the dictator is a problem as well. If you hate corruption in the US, you have no idea how much it will grow with a benevolent dictator holding all the power without fear of removal of office.
Lol so your heels are still dug in deep on the quid pro quo accusations. Even Zelensky denies the quid pro quo accusations and the manuscripts reveal very clearly that Trump never made the military aid contingent on Zelensky's cooperation in an investigation (I'll link the manuscript below and give you the opportunity to provide exact quotes to prove me wrong on this).
FFS zelensky isn't going to make a lifelong enemy of Trump, someone he might need help from! And Zelensky does not want to be accused of interfering with domestic US politics. Come on. You people are even dumber sometimes than you let on.
It's 100% transparent that Trump was doing what he always does - putting his own personal interests way way way ahead of the interests of the nation. And you encourage and enable that corruption. You encourage him to break his oath of office and the Constitution over and over and over.
Didn't separate himself from his business as POTUS like he promised? No problem, he is only in it for America. Made millions from chinese customers staying at his hotels in DC for insanely high rates? That's ok, let's just blame Biden for doing that. Appointed family members to highly influential political positions and they received dozens of chinese patents and multi-billion dollar injections of Saudi money into their fund? Nah, that's just smart business and regardless, he's just one of us.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
FFS zelensky isn't going to make a lifelong enemy of Trump, someone he might need help from! And Zelensky does not want to be accused of interfering with domestic US politics. Come on. You people are even dumber sometimes than you let on.
It's 100% transparent that Trump was doing what he always does - putting his own personal interests way way way ahead of the interests of the nation. And you encourage and enable that corruption. You encourage him to break his oath of office and the Constitution over and over and over.
I've looked at the manuscripts and see no evidence of quid pro quo. It's been The manuscripts are right there, you're free to provide evidence of "pressure" being applied. Nor do I see Trump trying to investigate the corruption of a future presidential candidate as "corruption" either. I personally believe that electing a president who has a history of selling his influence is a matter of national concern, but as usual, libs don't think so because it's one of their guys.
"Sure Trump put his own personal interests above national security by threatening an ally unless Zelensky helped Trump personally, but that's just trump being trump because Zelensky didn't play ball. No harm done!"
That's like saying 'sure i tried to rob a bank but i didn't get any money out of it so I didn't commit a crime.'
Doesnt' cut it. Sorry. Impeached, dishonored, not fit to serve.
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
I know that agip already put you in your place on this one. But it bears repeating:
1) If we abandon Ukraine at this point, as the GOP is pushing for (only because that is what Trump tells them to do), then yes, it will absolutely be a betrayal of historic proportions.
2) If you believe that Republicans have any interest in passing legislation to deal with the current border crisis (and taking away one of their most effective election talking points) then you are astonishingly stup!d.
Nobody is saying to completely abandon Ukraine. Nice strawman attempt.
Framing a halt on aid as a "betrayal of historic proportions" is also nothing but inflammatory rhetoric. The reality is that Ukraine is an extremely weak and corrupt ally to the US who I don't believe we owe much to. Maybe if they weren't ruled by corrupt oligarchs, they wouldn't need to rely so much on US aid to survive.
Actually, that is exactly what is happening. Nice coverup attempt.
I've looked at the manuscripts and see no evidence of quid pro quo. It's been The manuscripts are right there, you're free to provide evidence of "pressure" being applied. Nor do I see Trump trying to investigate the corruption of a future presidential candidate as "corruption" either. I personally believe that electing a president who has a history of selling his influence is a matter of national concern, but as usual, libs don't think so because it's one of their guys.
"Sure Trump put his own personal interests above national security by threatening an ally unless Zelensky helped Trump personally, but that's just trump being trump because Zelensky didn't play ball. No harm done!"
That's like saying 'sure i tried to rob a bank but i didn't get any money out of it so I didn't commit a crime.'
Doesnt' cut it. Sorry. Impeached, dishonored, not fit to serve.
lol "national security" yeah okay buddy, you've just shown you're willing to say just about anything to validate your own narrative. The country's national security was not going to be affected in any way, in fact the investigations into corruption within Ukraine that directly affected the US would be of benefit to national security.
Anyways, if you could wipe the tears from your eyes before reading my post, you'd see state that Trump never pressured Zelensky to start the investigations or made any aid contingent on the investigations. The decision to withhold aid came weeks before the call with Zelensky without Ukraine's knowledge. The aid was being withheld until Ukraine showed they would cooperate with investigating corruption related to the US, but wasn't explicitly told that the aid was being withheld because of this. It's hard to call this quid pro quo when Ukraine/Zelensky wasn't even aware of the terms.
our betrayal of Ukraine and Europe and the world is not democracy failing, it's government making a terrible decision.
democracies make terrible decisions frequently. Bad, but not as bad as voting in the guy who tried to foil democracy and says he'll do it again if given the chance, just better.
Don't conflate the issues.
We're headed into dangerous territory, but which issues exactly am I conflating? I told you how a previous quagmire ended, how one was dragged out off the books, and (I think this was too subtle) predicted how the Ukraine War will end.
I get that we don't agree on US involvement in Ukraine. We're both Americans, so we don't have to.
But...if I can sway you at all: consider these two points:
1) Zelensky is a snake in the grass. Ukraine is *not* a democracy (no free press, no opposition party, forced conscription for males under 60 (!)). Remember when he cozied up to to Trump after the President's "perfect letter?" The war in Ukraine, whether you support it or not, probably isn't winnable. Don't tell Zelensky...he's not having it. He wants NATO membership. How many dead Ukrainians are worth that goal, which is, fundamentally, all Putin opposes?
2) You don't like dictators. I get it. I don't like them, either. But I also don't like proxy wars to topple their regimes when our "interests" become more and more vague. We got involved in Vietnam to stop the spread of communism in SE Asia. The communists won. Now, both you and I can travel there and enjoy the best thing about capitalism, which really won in the end: great food, nice people, and cheap prices (thanks to the strength of the USD). [And hey: it's fundamentally un-American to oppose dictators when they *are on our side.*]
Agip...all is not doom and gloom, even if Putin wins. We might have detente with Russia. I would love cheaper gas...and maybe you can afford the price at the pump rn, but what I would love more is avoiding WWIII. Hope we can agree on that.
"Sure Trump put his own personal interests above national security by threatening an ally unless Zelensky helped Trump personally, but that's just trump being trump because Zelensky didn't play ball. No harm done!"
That's like saying 'sure i tried to rob a bank but i didn't get any money out of it so I didn't commit a crime.'
Doesnt' cut it. Sorry. Impeached, dishonored, not fit to serve.
lol "national security" yeah okay buddy, you've just shown you're willing to say just about anything to validate your own narrative. The country's national security was not going to be affected in any way, in fact the investigations into corruption within Ukraine that directly affected the US would be of benefit to national security.
Anyways, if you could wipe the tears from your eyes before reading my post, you'd see state that Trump never pressured Zelensky to start the investigations or made any aid contingent on the investigations. The decision to withhold aid came weeks before the call with Zelensky without Ukraine's knowledge. The aid was being withheld until Ukraine showed they would cooperate with investigating corruption related to the US, but wasn't explicitly told that the aid was being withheld because of this. It's hard to call this quid pro quo when Ukraine/Zelensky wasn't even aware of the terms.
You are mangling the truth by only talking about the phone call. Like the attempted coup, what trump did himself as crime boss was not nearly as bad as what Trump instructed his foot soldiers to do. You must watch Fox a lot to lower yourself to this kind of truth killing.
Just a quick cut and paste:
United States Ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland testified that he worked with Giuliani at Trump's "express direction" to arrange a quid pro quo with the Ukraine government.[41]
Ambassador Gordon Sondland testified today that it was his understanding that while the President of Ukraine had to announce the investigations being sought by Rudy Giuliani and President Donald Trump, Ukraine didn’t necessarily need to do them.
On October 17, Mulvaney said in response to a reporter's allegation of quid pro quo, "We do that all the time with foreign policy. Get over it." He walked back his comments later that day, asserting there had been "absolutely no quid pro quo" and that Trump had withheld military aid to Ukraine over concerns of the country's corruption.[38][52]
[T]he impeachment inquiry has found that President Trump, personally and acting through agents within and outside of the U.S. government, solicited the interference of a foreign government, Ukraine, to benefit his reelection. In furtherance of this scheme, President Trump conditioned official acts on a public announcement by the new Ukrainian President, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, of politically-motivated investigations, including one into President Trump's domestic political opponent. In pressuring President Zelenskyy to carry out his demand, President Trump withheld a White House meeting desperately sought by the Ukrainian President, and critical U.S. military assistance to fight Russian aggression in eastern Ukraine.[72]: 8–9
A day after Trump's impeachment, the evangelical magazine Christianity Today published an editorial calling for his removal from office, stating that the president "attempted to use his political power to coerce a foreign leader to harass and discredit one of the president's political opponents. That is not only a violation of the Constitution; more importantly, it is profoundly immoral."[121][122] On December 21, conservative Bill Kristol and a group calling itself "Republicans for the Rule of Law" released an ad encouraging viewers to call their senators to demand top Trump officials be forced to testify in his impeachment trial.[123]
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This is what Joe Biden is best at: Putting senators and reps into a room and getting them to compromise on something. I'm not saying this will work first try but it will likely grease the gears to get things moving. A president making offers and promises is powerful stuff. Biden has said he is fine with tightening asylum rules so there is room to run if Rs have any interest at all in securing the border. ( I know, Rs want a porous border but let's see)
President Biden will press congressional leaders for passage of his funding for Ukraine, Israel and the border during a meeting at the White House on Wednesday, his press secretary announced on Tuesday. Mr. Biden’s request for $61 billion in military assistance for Ukraine has been held up by a dispute with Republicans on Capitol Hill, who are demanding restrictive new policies at the border in exchange for their votes. But negotiations have stalled for weeks, leaving the Ukraine assistance in limbo. The president and his aides have warned that failing to approve funding for Ukraine could hand a victory to President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia in the two-year war that followed his invasion.
'Conservative' America's favorite rapist insurrectionist is back in court!
Donald Trump capped off his Iowa victory with a return to the courtroom Tuesday for a federal civil trial to determine how much money he may owe former advice columnist E. Jean Carroll for defamation after, as president, he denied raping her in the mid-1990s.
Trump, whose 2024 presidential campaign will collide with a crowded schedule of criminal cases and lawsuits, sat attentively in Judge Lewis Kaplan's Manhattan courtroom, glaring and scowling at times as about six-dozen prospective jurors answered questions posed by the judge over everything from their prior involvement with the judicial system to their political beliefs.
We're headed into dangerous territory, but which issues exactly am I conflating? I told you how a previous quagmire ended, how one was dragged out off the books, and (I think this was too subtle) predicted how the Ukraine War will end.
I get that we don't agree on US involvement in Ukraine. We're both Americans, so we don't have to.
But...if I can sway you at all: consider these two points:
1) Zelensky is a snake in the grass. Ukraine is *not* a democracy (no free press, no opposition party, forced conscription for males under 60 (!)). Remember when he cozied up to to Trump after the President's "perfect letter?" The war in Ukraine, whether you support it or not, probably isn't winnable. Don't tell Zelensky...he's not having it. He wants NATO membership. How many dead Ukrainians are worth that goal, which is, fundamentally, all Putin opposes?
2) You don't like dictators. I get it. I don't like them, either. But I also don't like proxy wars to topple their regimes when our "interests" become more and more vague. We got involved in Vietnam to stop the spread of communism in SE Asia. The communists won. Now, both you and I can travel there and enjoy the best thing about capitalism, which really won in the end: great food, nice people, and cheap prices (thanks to the strength of the USD). [And hey: it's fundamentally un-American to oppose dictators when they *are on our side.*]
Agip...all is not doom and gloom, even if Putin wins. We might have detente with Russia. I would love cheaper gas...and maybe you can afford the price at the pump rn, but what I would love more is avoiding WWIII. Hope we can agree on that.
Great post man
Thanks.
Last night in Iowa was a smackdown of Biblical commensurate. Trump destroyed the RINOs, including the high-strung twitchy guy that doesn't even have a certified US birth account. And he wasn't even trying. Trump took it easy on the RINOs. Nothing like the job he did on Lyin' Raphael Cruz and Lil' Marco back in circa 2016.
Iowa was the beginning of The Retribution of 2024. On to Hampshire!
The Des Moines Register pre-caucus poll also found that among these gung-ho Republicans, six percent would support Robert F. Kennedy Jr. rather than Trump, and eight percent would seek another third party choice.
Bottom line: At least 25 percent of Iowa Republican caucus-goers say they will not vote for Trump in the general.
Keep in mind that Iowa is Trumpiest of Trumpland. Trump could crap in a jar, tell Iowans it is rocky road, they would eat it and ask for more.
The Des Moines Register pre-caucus poll also found that among these gung-ho Republicans, six percent would support Robert F. Kennedy Jr. rather than Trump, and eight percent would seek another third party choice.
Bottom line: At least 25 percent of Iowa Republican caucus-goers say they will not vote for Trump in the general.
Keep in mind that Iowa is Trumpiest of Trumpland. Trump could crap in a jar, tell Iowans it is rocky road, they would eat it and ask for more.
Hopefully there is truth in this. I have several lifelong Republican friends who are "done" with Trump. One told me over lunch he can't stand Biden, thinks he is senile, and his aids are running the country, but will still vote for Biden over Trump. I realize much of the Republican party is FOR Trump, no matter what. I know some of these also. The problem for Republicans is that zero Democrats, very few moderates, and not even all Republicans will vote for Trump. He got 51% in one of the Trumpiest states in the US. This likely means another popular vote loss in 2024 (3rd time) and very likely an Electoral College loss just like 2020 (no guarantee, of course). If so, will Republicans learn their lesson then? Will they try to find a candidate who appeals to more than 50% of the population, or will they go even further right wing? Time will tell.
We're headed into dangerous territory, but which issues exactly am I conflating? I told you how a previous quagmire ended, how one was dragged out off the books, and (I think this was too subtle) predicted how the Ukraine War will end.
I get that we don't agree on US involvement in Ukraine. We're both Americans, so we don't have to.
But...if I can sway you at all: consider these two points:
1) Zelensky is a snake in the grass. Ukraine is *not* a democracy (no free press, no opposition party, forced conscription for males under 60 (!)). Remember when he cozied up to to Trump after the President's "perfect letter?" The war in Ukraine, whether you support it or not, probably isn't winnable. Don't tell Zelensky...he's not having it. He wants NATO membership. How many dead Ukrainians are worth that goal, which is, fundamentally, all Putin opposes?
2) You don't like dictators. I get it. I don't like them, either. But I also don't like proxy wars to topple their regimes when our "interests" become more and more vague. We got involved in Vietnam to stop the spread of communism in SE Asia. The communists won. Now, both you and I can travel there and enjoy the best thing about capitalism, which really won in the end: great food, nice people, and cheap prices (thanks to the strength of the USD). [And hey: it's fundamentally un-American to oppose dictators when they *are on our side.*]
Agip...all is not doom and gloom, even if Putin wins. We might have detente with Russia. I would love cheaper gas...and maybe you can afford the price at the pump rn, but what I would love more is avoiding WWIII. Hope we can agree on that.
This is a rational explanation. However, I take issue with the painting of a dictatorship being simply a change of an economic system from Capitalism to communism. The full breath of living under a dictator needs to be measured in oppression of minority views. Oppression of Arts. Oppression of religion. Oppression of freedom of speech. Oppression of protest. And most of all corruption. If you are not in favor of the beloved dictator and those in his approved circle you can't conduct business or make a living.
And also watching the countries national resources and foreign policies become plundered for the good of the dictator is a problem as well. If you hate corruption in the US, you have no idea how much it will grow with a benevolent dictator holding all the power without fear of removal of office.
Outside of the dictator himself, who is a fan of a dictator? The answer is surprising: the US, when said dictator represents our interests!
In the 1960's , the US backed such a dictator called Ngo Dihn Diem. He was a Catholic...in a country that had a large Bhuddist population. Then he became unfavorable, we abandoned him, and his corpse ended up with more bullet holes than Ceaușescu. I don't see Zelensky suffering the same fate, but I do see us abandoning him...and who knows?
We don't care about warlords in Africa, and there are so many of them, they should form a guild. No money there (unless you play it like the Chinese and grab their mineral rights). There's the ugly American, and his cousin, the blissfully unaware one. I probably fall into both categories...but it comes with the territory when you live better than 99% of the world and take it completely for granted.
Last night in Iowa was a smackdown of Biblical commensurate. Trump destroyed the RINOs, including the high-strung twitchy guy that doesn't even have a certified US birth account. And he wasn't even trying. Trump took it easy on the RINOs. Nothing like the job he did on Lyin' Raphael Cruz and Lil' Marco back in circa 2016.
Iowa was the beginning of The Retribution of 2024. On to Hampshire!
Axelrod: WTF, GOP. And shows how Trump puts himself ahead of the nation. Anyone else would quit his campaign to save the nation from exactly this. Not Trump. Full speed ahead and in fact make it worse by campaigning ON the trials. Because his only hope is to win the WH and pardon himself. Self over nation = a big fat DQ.
The Republican Party is steaming toward nominating a candidate for POTUS who is facing 4 criminal indictments, including one for plotting to overturn a free and fair election. He very well could be a convicted felon by the Republican convention in July. And he could win! We should not lose sight of the meaning of this. It would be a stunning rebuke of the rules, norms, laws and institutions upon which our democracy is founded and would have profound implications for the future.
This post was edited 14 minutes after it was posted.
