Catch is the all answers are limited to a single word:
Vo2?: No
Taper: Beer
Marathon fueling: Mars
Been spoon fed from day 1 here yet still hasn't ever bothered listening to train like this for the amount of time required, in fact has done everything but: Jecht.
I know this has probably been discussed before and I apologize for potentially bringing it up again, but I'm dealing with an injury and was wondering how to structure a typical cross training week on the stationary bike? I have Zwift and have used the bike plenty of times as a cross training tool while injured (I've gotten my FTP up to 350 w/kg before during a long injury stint) so I have some experience, but I'd really appreciate some insight as to how the most out of this cross training block I'll likely have to deal with for a few weeks.
The craziest part to me is that his progression is almost linear, there isn't a single bad race, as far as I can tell. Biggest jump probably happened in fall 2023, from 17:09 to 16:12 within two months.
The craziest part to me is that his progression is almost linear, there isn't a single bad race, as far as I can tell. Biggest jump probably happened in fall 2023, from 17:09 to 16:12 within two months.
That also shows you how it takes a while for floodgates to open. I believe early 2023 was when he started doing fully this method and has trained same to the same theory every day since. But a lot of people have mentioned they make some progress like this, then it seems to all catch up on itself after period I guess of adapt training like this and then the times come roaring down.
One o key points here is understanding how training load can roughly be accounted for , which I'm sure even with inaccuracies evens out over time training one specific way. It's easy to just say, I know I'm doing more as I'm doing the same thing, just more. As silly as sounds. That along with the consistency is absolutely in my mind why this work.
Where book for the majority is going to be useful in my mind, is understanding the core principles in play here. You don't need to understand lactate thresholds to train like this, because you don't need to test. But if you understand them, that gives you an understand of why you run the easy paces you do, and why you run the workouts you do ,and why it is incredibly important not to tweak the eco system here.
Sorry my English is second language I hope I make sense. Thank you. Kind regard to everyone in this thread.
I started the method only 3 weeks ago and read up on as much as I could. One thing I maybe missed is how do you progess the load? Is it just slowly getting faster over time with the sub T reps or adding time in easy runs? Or is it just racing a 5km every 4-6 weeks to up date paces and then the faster paces increase the load? How is it geing done?
Estimations from CP3-hyp were found to be the most accurate, independently of TTE range. Models that include two trials between 12 and 20min provide good agreement with the criterion method (for both CP and W').
I am also wondering. Because if you keep your weeks in the same proportions of intensity (i.e. 75% easy 25% sub T), with a weekly duration time of say, 7 hours, then, the CTL will be the same every week, right ?
Even if you end up improving, in fact, your paces will get faster, but, in proportion, the CTL (load) stay the same, or am I missing something ?
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
It's kind of a combo of a little bit of everything. The short answer is mostly by gradually increasing volume.
In order to increase CTL and improve you have to generate more TSS in your week than your CTL x 7. For example if your CTL is 50, then your week needs to generate more than 350 TSS in order for you to have a TSB less than zero, ramp rate above zero, and have an increase in CTL. The easiest and most manipulatable way to achieve this is by increase volume. If you are tracking everything in intervals.icu, then it becomes obvious when to increase mileage and by how much. The key is to increase very gradually and not let your ramp rate get to high or your form get too negative. Somewhere between a form of -5 to -10 is probably a safe place to train. This means if your CTL is 50, then you should aim to generate about 385-420 TSS. If you are tracking things, after a while, you'll know roughly how much mileage translates to the total TSS generated for the week. I think there have been tools shared in this thread in the past to calculate it as well.
As your race times improve, your workout paces should improve as well, but really just to "keep up" rather than "increase load". What I mean by that is that as your fitness/race pace improves it will require a faster pace just to maintain the same rate at which you generate TSS in the workout (i.e., same TSS/minute). As you get fitter your easy paces should improve as well. Again if the efforts are still the same, just at faster paces, then your TSS/minute will still be the same, which means that in order to build CTL you have to increase (gradually) volume. I hope that makes sense.
I am also wondering. Because if you keep your weeks in the same proportions of intensity (i.e. 75% easy 25% sub T), with a weekly duration time of say, 7 hours, then, the CTL will be the same every week, right ?
Even if you end up improving, in fact, your paces will get faster, but, in proportion, the CTL (load) stay the same, or am I missing something ?
Right. Sirpoc can correct me, but I bet his CTL hasn't increased by more than 15 points in the last year. Could be more, but only due his marathon block. But between Jan 2024 and Jan 2025, I bet it was less than 15 point increase. He increases his weekly load very slowly. Keeping the fatigue to a minimum.
It's kind of a combo of a little bit of everything. The short answer is mostly by gradually increasing volume.
In order to increase CTL and improve you have to generate more TSS in your week than your CTL x 7. For example if your CTL is 50, then your week needs to generate more than 350 TSS in order for you to have a TSB less than zero, ramp rate above zero, and have an increase in CTL. The easiest and most manipulatable way to achieve this is by increase volume. If you are tracking everything in intervals.icu, then it becomes obvious when to increase mileage and by how much. The key is to increase very gradually and not let your ramp rate get to high or your form get too negative. Somewhere between a form of -5 to -10 is probably a safe place to train. This means if your CTL is 50, then you should aim to generate about 385-420 TSS. If you are tracking things, after a while, you'll know roughly how much mileage translates to the total TSS generated for the week. I think there have been tools shared in this thread in the past to calculate it as well.
As your race times improve, your workout paces should improve as well, but really just to "keep up" rather than "increase load". What I mean by that is that as your fitness/race pace improves it will require a faster pace just to maintain the same rate at which you generate TSS in the workout (i.e., same TSS/minute). As you get fitter your easy paces should improve as well. Again if the efforts are still the same, just at faster paces, then your TSS/minute will still be the same, which means that in order to build CTL you have to increase (gradually) volume. I hope that makes sense.
I read a lot about all of this and your explanation allows me to tell myself I understood these notions quite well.
In fact, for my personal side, my fitness curve since mid 2023 (when I started running after no sport at all for 5 years), is a roller coaster. This method allows my curve to be better controlled and I don't feel burnt out as often as before.
But, in fact this looks like a very gradual increase with a ramp rate of something like 0.2 to 0.4 per week. Far, far away from what the literature of ctl says i.e. in this trainingpeaks guide (5 to 8 point per week).
Ramp rate is a metric that monitors your rate of increase or decrease in your fitness over a set time. Coach Joe Friel explains what Ramp Rate is and how you can find the correct rate for you.
Yea, I think ramp rate when you are training according to a plan using periodization can get get quite a bit higher than the ramp rate that you can hold basically year-round without breaks. Look at Sirpoc's strava, he basically never takes breaks (only 2 off days after a marathon for example).
It's a very calculated way of training designed to be as efficient as possible (ensure consistent improvement while minimizing risk). Quantify exactly how much you need to train in order to be in a state of improvement (even if it's only gradual improvement), and then just sit in that state without breaks month after month. You only need to improve a couple seconds per mile each month and in 2 years you'll be minutes faster over the common race distances.
Quantify exactly how much you need to train in order to be in a state of improvement (even if it's only gradual improvement), and then just sit in that state without breaks month after month. You only need to improve a couple seconds per mile each month and in 2 years you'll be minutes faster over the common race distances.
“I have a training calculation problem, and all I want to hear from you is, ‘You ain’t go no problem. I’m on it. Go back in there and chill them runners out, and wait for the quant cavalry, which should be coming directly!’”
“You ain’t go no problem. I’m on it. Go back in there and chill them runners out, and wait for the Wolf, who should be coming directly.’”
Quantify exactly how much you need to train in order to be in a state of improvement (even if it's only gradual improvement), and then just sit in that state without breaks month after month. You only need to improve a couple seconds per mile each month and in 2 years you'll be minutes faster over the common race distances.
“I have a training calculation problem, and all I want to hear from you is, ‘You ain’t go no problem. I’m on it. Go back in there and chill them runners out, and wait for the quant cavalry, which should be coming directly!’”
“You ain’t go no problem. I’m on it. Go back in there and chill them runners out, and wait for the Wolf, who should be coming directly.’”
”You’re sending the Wolf?”
”Don’t you feel better now?”
”Well shoot, son, that’s all you had to say!
Sounds like you’ll be drinking a Samuel Jackson the night before your big races!
Right. Sirpoc can correct me, but I bet his CTL hasn't increased by more than 15 points in the last year. Could be more, but only due his marathon block. But between Jan 2024 and Jan 2025, I bet it was less than 15 point increase. He increases his weekly load very slowly. Keeping the fatigue to a minimum.
He is extremely patient and it has paid off.
Probably not far off, might even be less of an increase. The first year was very easy to progress fast. I found it hard with using more traditional plans to get past the 40-50 CTL/fitness range without having to take down weeks and it all crashing down and starting over (the so called boom and bust cycle). But quite quickly training like this, I could get past that barrier. It's much harder now. So in actual real time, progress seems less.
But the big thing, in relative terms, the increase is still linear in improvement for the most part. If I improve CTL/fitness by 2-3 points, I will almost always see a next step up in performance (yet to reach the point of diminished returns, more = more for now). It's just the time it takes to build that up now, is greater and greater. There's less headroom to grow at the faster rate, with the time available to me.
I my opinion, in the latter stages of that marathon build, I went beyond what is sustainable. Although that was deliberate , for a short but violent crash course into the specificity for the marathon and it paid off. But the genesis of this idea is everything remains sustainable, with the ability to very, very slowly increase at a slower rate than other training plans, but with the offset and advantage this is more likely to keep you healthy.
Right. Sirpoc can correct me, but I bet his CTL hasn't increased by more than 15 points in the last year. Could be more, but only due his marathon block. But between Jan 2024 and Jan 2025, I bet it was less than 15 point increase. He increases his weekly load very slowly. Keeping the fatigue to a minimum.
He is extremely patient and it has paid off.
Probably not far off, might even be less of an increase. The first year was very easy to progress fast. I found it hard with using more traditional plans to get past the 40-50 CTL/fitness range without having to take down weeks and it all crashing down and starting over (the so called boom and bust cycle). But quite quickly training like this, I could get past that barrier. It's much harder now. So in actual real time, progress seems less.
But the big thing, in relative terms, the increase is still linear in improvement for the most part. If I improve CTL/fitness by 2-3 points, I will almost always see a next step up in performance (yet to reach the point of diminished returns, more = more for now). It's just the time it takes to build that up now, is greater and greater. There's less headroom to grow at the faster rate, with the time available to me.
I my opinion, in the latter stages of that marathon build, I went beyond what is sustainable. Although that was deliberate , for a short but violent crash course into the specificity for the marathon and it paid off. But the genesis of this idea is everything remains sustainable, with the ability to very, very slowly increase at a slower rate than other training plans, but with the offset and advantage this is more likely to keep you healthy.
Here is a screenshot of my ctl graph since august 2023, it is in fact showing the boom and bust cycles... When the graph goes down, it is legit because i was roasted, i needed that time to 'heal' back....
If this happens and he self-publishes rather than goes through a publisher, I'd be happy to contribute some editing time (I write professionally). Maybe others are in the same situation. I've seen a few books that would've been so much better with some careful proof reading/editing.
I appreciate the response, from yourself and a few others. Make sure you and others identify yourselves to me on Strava or something (usually easiest if direct) in the off chance I did actually write something that wasn't so sh*t, I just left it to gather dust until the end of time.
Hello everyone. Loving this thread! Been reading it from the start up to something like page 60.
I am curious what you would suggest for someone just starting out, who wants to eventually follow this kind of training. I'm currently at ~90 min running per week on a 4 day schedule. Any preferred way on how to increase weekly time on feet. Should I include some subT work? What percentage would be good to start with? The full 25% percent, or rather less, since the plan is to build weekly time on feet quicker, then when you are at the full schedule?
