You were dismantled days ago. Now all you have for an argument is "he's too fast to be clean".
You were dismantled days ago. Now all you have for an argument is "he's too fast to be clean".
Torres is the Jamin of the elite world. He complains about how unfair it is for a 41 year old stealing a win from deserving younger guys(much like the older guy/younger girl gym thread).
He whines about a fast last lap in a 13:35 tempo run. Maybe Torres felt like he missed his chance to win a race he didn't run because he picked the easy way. This is similar to the high school #7 guy that would rather run in the JV race so he has a chance to win.
llort_vbo wrote:
You said this in response to my post. I'm certainly not COMPLETELY convinced he is clean, and I have no problem with overall skepticism, but when people claim he's doping without even a shred of support, or by offering up poor arguments why they think he's doping, that irks me. He has the 2nd best time in the world ever in an event - that's enough to raise some eyebrows, and also enough, when coupled with his training approach and health streak, to explain his success at 41.
I can't for the life of me understand why {otherwise apparently intelligent} people don't see Lagat as dirty.
In every distance event on the track for 1500m - 10,000m times dropped precipitously from about 1990 - 2005 or so, give or take a year on each side. Then when EPO testing becomes more effective along with biological passport and other ways of finding non-analytic positives, the times level off not to be approached since. Lagat is a potential medalist from 1500-5000m in every championship meet between 2000-2012. Think about it for a second - when Dave Moorcroft knocked on the 13 flat door in 82, wouldn't it have been weird for no one to run faster than 13:09 for 8 years?
So you have an era in which we now have proof that there was widespread doping and tainted records across the whole T&F spectrum and Lagat is one of the most dominant figures (in some ways most dominant), but he's somehow managed to stay clean?
Admit it. You don't want to believe that Lagat is dirty. He seems like a genuinely nice guy, he has a family, he works hard. It would be amazing to think that someone could achieve longevity through diet, hard work, managed training, etc so that they could drop a 52 to close a championship 5k at 41. But you have to admit that this is a fairy tale, no less appealing and bewitching than the Hollywood "boy meets girl, loses girl, ..." tried and true formula. Don't be hoodwinked.
It's time to grow up guys. The sport is still insanely dirty and I'd put us at about 1998 terms for cycling. You have incredible corruption in Jamaica, East Africa, Russia and then normal corruption in the US, UK, and others. We haven't really even had the Festina affair yet unless that's Aden's camp.
Hey man, I said it is possible. But the USOT 5000m didn't do anything to raise the suspicion any higher, so to believe he is a doper is to believe he's gotten away with if for the better part of two decades. That's a pretty sophisticated regimen for Bernie and James - you're giving them a lot of credit.
Hey man, I said it is possible. But the USOT 5000m didn't do anything to raise the suspicion any higher, so to believe he is a doper is to believe he's gotten away with if for the better part of two decades. That's a pretty sophisticated regimen for Bernie and James - you're giving them a lot of credit.
Yes, I believe they have a very sophisticated regime. Probably like Marion Jones - hgh, insulin, steroids, epo. Remember that she only got caught because of a jealous coach and a wayward syringe.
Policy guy wrote:
You were dismantled days ago. Now all you have for an argument is "he's too fast to be clean".
Same argument. It just seems different because you're a bit slow. You need to stop obsessing over LR posters. I shouldn't be that important to you.
andicamp wrote:
Hnhh wrote:I feel like his not being in great shape leading up to this makes it more suspicious. A few weeks ago he can't hang on to ~13:10 pace at pre with Ben True and now he's dusting him and a bunch of other guys in 13 low shape? I get that he's peaking for this and may peak better than anyone else but this seems like a weird bump and an outlier like others have mentioned.
A couple other points, the old world record for 5k by a 41 year old was 13:57, nobody 42+ has broken 14. Performances usually drop off pretty quickly at these ages and not only has he mostly avoided this decline, but he's destroying old records.
Also, look at Meb. He's doing incredible things at his age but definitely showed he's getting old when he had no answer for Galen who was making his marathon debut. Now Lagat is smoking runners 15 years younger than him in an event that we're much stronger in than the marathon? We'll probably never know if he's clean right now or not but the people in this thread acting like there's nothing to see here don't have their eyes open.
Performances DON'T drop necessarily off quickly at that age. What are you basing that on?
He's smoking runners younger than him because those particular runners are nowhere near as good as he was in his prime. And because they didn't go hard from the gun. If anyone had the balls to set a low 13 pace from the beginning, Lagat wouldn't have been a factor.
I think what has also helped Lagat is nothing has changed in his life athletically, same sponsor, agent, coach, training setup and no major injuries. Most athletes in the twilight of their careers don't maintain that consistency. Also, one of the downsides of doping as an older athlete is injury, often the dope gives you more power than your body can handle.
What helped and helps him today is EPO, HGH and many other things. I did love those braces a few years ago. Great timing
LocoRuno wrote:
What helped and helps him today is EPO, HGH and many other things. I did love those braces a few years ago. Great timing
Yeah, how dare he want to fix the gap in his teeth that he had as early as I started seeing him in college!
There are several reasons:1) During the B-sample analysis, they went back and reviewed the A-sample, determining that even the A-sample was in fact, not positive. And yet we still have people, including Torrence, asking "yeah but what about the positive A-sample ...?"2) This existence of an EPO-era in track is not an argument based on any evidence or intelligence, but faith that EPO is the best, or even a good explanation of the fast track times of a the 90's for only a handful of athletes.3) That EPO testing stopped the record progressions in track, but somehow counter-intuitively accelerated precipitous drops in the marathon times.4) We don't "have an era in which we now have proof that there was widespread doping and tainted records across the whole T&F spectrum".5) It is not weird for records to stand for 8 years.6) That Lagat has been dirty for so long, despite the lack of other corroborating evidence.
llort_vbo wrote:
I can't for the life of me understand why {otherwise apparently intelligent} people don't see Lagat as dirty.
In every distance event on the track for 1500m - 10,000m times dropped precipitously from about 1990 - 2005 or so, give or take a year on each side. Then when EPO testing becomes more effective along with biological passport and other ways of finding non-analytic positives, the times level off not to be approached since. Lagat is a potential medalist from 1500-5000m in every championship meet between 2000-2012. Think about it for a second - when Dave Moorcroft knocked on the 13 flat door in 82, wouldn't it have been weird for no one to run faster than 13:09 for 8 years?
So you have an era in which we now have proof that there was widespread doping and tainted records across the whole T&F spectrum and Lagat is one of the most dominant figures (in some ways most dominant), but he's somehow managed to stay clean?
Admit it. You don't want to believe that Lagat is dirty. He seems like a genuinely nice guy, he has a family, he works hard. It would be amazing to think that someone could achieve longevity through diet, hard work, managed training, etc so that they could drop a 52 to close a championship 5k at 41. But you have to admit that this is a fairy tale, no less appealing and bewitching than the Hollywood "boy meets girl, loses girl, ..." tried and true formula. Don't be hoodwinked.
It's time to grow up guys. The sport is still insanely dirty and I'd put us at about 1998 terms for cycling. You have incredible corruption in Jamaica, East Africa, Russia and then normal corruption in the US, UK, and others. We haven't really even had the Festina affair yet unless that's Aden's camp.