Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Would anyone be so kind as to list the recommended paces again?

Specifically, is 3 min / km around 8k pace and 12 min around 30k pace?

Also a summary from page 60 of this thread

Build towards 2-3 sub-threshold sessions per week + 1 long run, and the rest easy. Typical weeks look like E, Q, E, Q, E, Q, LR or Rest, Q, E, Q, E, Q, LR. (Q = quality, i.e., sub-threshold).

Sub-threshold work should comprise 20-25% (MAYBE 30%) of total time spent running during the week. So if you run 50mpw in 7 hours, you should run a total of 84-105 mins of sub-threshold per week, or or 28-35 minutes per session.

Sub-threshold is a STATE not a pace. For trained runners, if LT2 threshold is 4.0-4.5mmol, a sub-threshold session should aim to reach ~2.5-3.5mmol measured at the end of the last rep.

You don't necessarily need a lactate test / lactate meter if you generally follow the paces below. But in my personal experience, I would say when first starting out, to run a bit slower than the below, as it seems that when you are adjusting to the volume, lactate can run a little higher.

Reaching sub-threshold can be done with a virtually unlimited combination of interval distances, paces, and rest periods. The most common are:

1K reps (usually 8-12 x 1K) with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace

2K reps (usually 4-6 x 2K) with 60" rest at HM pace

3L reps (usually 3 x 3K) with 60" rest at 30K pace

Or in terms of time-based intervals, the most common are:

3-4 minute reps with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace

6-8 minute reps with 60" rest at HM pace

10-12 minute reps with 60" rest at 30K pace

Looks like some people do 400m / 1 minute reps with 30" rest at 10K pace occasionally as well. Rest can be standing, walking, or jogging - goal is to just keep the rest short to maintain lactate state.

On easy runs, keep them extremely EASY. Absolutely no higher than 65% of MAS (your max pace you can hold for 6 minutes) or 70% of max heart rate.

No need to do VO2max or harder "x-factor" workouts (e.g., hills) until you stop progressing on this method. Would note, sirpoc does a 5K parkrun race every 4-5 weeks, so he might be getting some stimulus from that. But he noted he has gone 10 weeks without racing and still had big PBs after.

The main hypothesis behind this method is that you can accumulate significantly more training stress (measured by pace-based TSS) over a given period of time vs. a traditional Daniels approach (track workout, tempo, long run), with the same or less fatigue / injury risk. The key is to always err on the slower side and not go over your LT threshold (even when feeling good) as that leads to disproportionate fatigue for the training stress, and can very quickly build up and leave you trashed.

Sirpoc (the key poster in this thread) has shown over the course of several months that this method has consistently produced very impressive PBs. To be fair, he is an N of 1. I am personally giving this method a try and will report back.

Hope that summarizes it.

Wait, I've been doing 1 min recovery jogs for my 2k & 11 min repeats per pg 60 summary ^. You're telling me I could've taken 90 sec & 2 min rests all this time? I'd gladly have longer rests.

I think Sirpoc decided at a later stage to increase the rest for the longer reps.

Nah it’s there from the beginning of the thread

Surely the length of rest should be somewhat proportional to the time/distance of each rep?

Read the first two pages of this thread.

I stand corrected.

However, he has been doing the longer rest for quite a long time now and has given those numbers several times in the thread. It’s too long to find them, but I think it’s been well over a year. Maybe I’m wrong

I think the correct duration of rest is mainly a function of muscle fatigue/damage.

Well, it's definitely related to lactate clearance, since 3min and shorter reps are setting you on a path to very high lactate concentrations, so the rests are necessary to keep the lactate levels in the correct zone.

But the rests are how we differentiate intervals from a continuous tempo. The whole point of doing intervals for every workout is that we believe they build more aerobic fitness for less muscle damage, thus enabling a bigger training load. If the rests are too short, the intervals are not differentiated from a continuous tempo enough, so that efficiency is compromised.

So I think it's something each individual needs to figure out for themselves. But it gets to be more and more of a waste of time to take longer rests for the shorter reps since you are doing so many reps, that's a lot of time standing around during your workout. I think what Sirpoc has been doing lately makes sense as a standard. And for marathon training if you do some of the special marathon workouts (long runs with longer reps), it makes sense to start jogging the rests.

Was a genuine question. Not sure how to handle essentially a full planned week off with this style of training. Tough crowd.

In practice, it's easy. You maximize your training load for the time constraints you have. If this means you can do 3 x 1 mile on Tuesday and 3 x 1 mile on Friday and nothing else, then do that. The biggest problem when you start back will be feeling too fresh and running your workouts too fast.

Shouldn’t I run slower when I’m back anyway? Won’t a massive down week just tank fitness?

Fitness won't be much affected - you obv won't have gained fitness but you won't lose much either.

What will have tanked is your CTL, which is annoying if you've been tracking. But that is not the same as fitness, nor an end in itself. Saw mine drop tons after I took nearly a week off over Easter - life happens: kids, work, travel, family. Running was bottom of the pile.

If you have to have a lighter week, I actually think the week after is a good time to race, since you'll be fresher. Came back from Easter and shaved a couple seconds off my 5k.

Not ideal in the purist scheme of this system, but my constraints are my constraints.

As far as rest between reps goes… after some trial and error in the beginning, I’ve found that 1 min standing rest works well for me for the 3 and 6 min reps. 2 min seems to be sweet spot for the 10 min reps. I tried a slow jog between reps in the beginning, but I didn’t feel like I was recovering enough. That approach seems to keep me right in the zone for the suggested paces.

I considered trying 90 sec rest for the 6 min reps early on. The only reason I didn’t try it was due to the fact that I look at the total time on my watch as I’m running. I didn’t want to have to think about stopping on a 30 second mark haha. The workouts are programmed on my watch, so it would’ve alerted me the rep was over. I just hate having things not be super simple when my brain is a little low on oxygen mid workout… also, the 1 min rest for 6 min reps has worked out to be just fine.

I think sirpoc has mentioned something like this before, but has anybody else been able to map their intervals icu fitness score to a predicted race time? I know that fitness score is relative but I'm curious if anybody has any ideas on this.

For example, I've run 18:50 with a fitness score of 55. If I get my score up to 60, maybe I'll be closer to 18:30? Or maybe getting my score to 70 will mean I'm in shape to break 18?

What does training look like on the week of a race?

I have a half on Sunday and I'm not sure how to plan the week.

Replace the third Sub-T with an easy run. As simple as that