erererefdafdsf wrote:
...You bring Viren into it, and that is irrelevant because 1. He's not Lagat and 2. He was never busted for doping. If you're trying to say that Viren was a doper (which I have no clue of), then you just pretty much made my point.
There is absolutely no doubt among anyone over the age of 15, that Viren was practicing Autologous blood transfusions - doping to you. It was not illegal at the time
janshr khan wrote:
If Lagat retires in 2002 with that 3.26 in the book, I doubt you'd find a single poster on here not suspicious.
Not suspicious at all. There are much more suspicious runner than Lagat. Lagat is a the lower tiers of suspicion. Torrence is more suspicious because he knows what to use from a suspicious coach, Aden.
A real fine example wrote:
rojo wrote:If readers knew your ip's they'd liked be shocked at the ish the
owners of this site pull, and you lose what little cred and respect you have.
Why are you here? Why do you torture yourself so much? There must be a reason. That reason is you can't stay away because you like LRC too much the way it is. Otherwise, you'd have left long ago.
disgraceful_admin wrote:
Exhausted of it wrote:There are a freakish number of vehement Lagat defenders on these boards despite the obvious sketchiness of his record and performances, especially during the EPO era. Almost like it's orchestrated. Hm.
Hanging with El G, who was epically doped, and even beating him, that's enough for my suspicions to be raised. Plus these performances in his 40s. And people like Torrence being suspicious. I'm suspicious too. You'd have to be a fool not to be.
But apparently there are many, many people on here who are convinced he's clean. I find that very odd.
What makes you think El G was doped?
His consistent seemingly effortless 3:26-3:29s, his training partner busted, the lack of proper testing during that era, the peak EPO era, lack of controls/oversight in North Africa, etc. He also paced Lance during his NYC marathon debut. That's not great. But maybe he was clean, or maybe Alan Webb is the clean 1500m WR holder, who knows.
Good job Torrence wrote:
Tell it like it is. I have no respect for Lagat and much respect for Torrence now. This is a farce of a "US" team now using unbelievably drugged up Kenyans.
Geez, Torrence, don't make it so obvious when you pat yourself on the back.
Exhausted of it wrote:
But maybe he was clean, or maybe Alan Webb is the clean 1500m WR holder, who knows.
Why did you pick an American to be the clean WR holder? Tells us a lot about who you cast doubts of guilt on, and who you refuse to believe could ever be guilty.
Exhausted of it wrote:
disgraceful_admin wrote:What makes you think El G was doped?
His consistent seemingly effortless 3:26-3:29s, his training partner busted, the lack of proper testing during that era, the peak EPO era, lack of controls/oversight in North Africa, etc. He also paced Lance during his NYC marathon debut. That's not great. But maybe he was clean, or maybe Alan Webb is the clean 1500m WR holder, who knows.
Look how many sub 3:30s El G has. The sheer volume is suspicious.
http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_1500ok.htmRunning that fast must be very taxing on the body, but apparently not so much for him. He did it a few dozen times. That makes sense. He was probably just that much better than everyone else and was completely clean even during an era when you could get away with cheating and there was lots of prize money on the line. I'm sure the majority weren't cheating, just like pro cycling.
At first glance looks like EL G ran under 3:30 34 times or so. That seems reasonable doesn't it?
Unsuspicious wrote:
janshr khan wrote:If Lagat retires in 2002 with that 3.26 in the book, I doubt you'd find a single poster on here not suspicious.
Not suspicious at all. There are much more suspicious runner than Lagat. Lagat is a the lower tiers of suspicion. Torrence is more suspicious because he knows what to use from a suspicious coach, Aden.
Who cares now. I certainly won't be watching the olympic 5k now that's for sure. Don't need to support all this nonsense...
Exhausted of it wrote:
His consistent seemingly effortless 3:26-3:29s...
This makes absolutely no sense. Why would a 3:29 NOT be effortless if he was in 3:25 shape?
Exhausted of it wrote:
At first glance looks like EL G ran under 3:30 34 times or so. That seems reasonable doesn't it?
Yeah, it's pretty reasonable when you consider that Lagat ran under 3:31 27 times. And that Morceli ran 3:31.00 or under 21 times.
When you look at outliers of human biology, what makes you think there should be a big cluster of people at the top right next to each other, and that if any one is just a big better than the rest, that implies cheating?
It's the equivalent of saying that the tallest guys in the NBA max out at around 7 feet. You hardly ever see anyone over 7 ft 1. So when Yao Ming comes along at 7 ft 6 - and he has stayed at that height consistently for years from what I can tell - that implies doping.
disgraceful_admin wrote:
Exhausted of it wrote:At first glance looks like EL G ran under 3:30 34 times or so. That seems reasonable doesn't it?
Yeah, it's pretty reasonable when you consider that Lagat ran under 3:31 27 times. And that Morceli ran 3:31.00 or under 21 times.
When you look at outliers of human biology, what makes you think there should be a big cluster of people at the top right next to each other, and that if any one is just a big better than the rest, that implies cheating?
It's the equivalent of saying that the tallest guys in the NBA max out at around 7 feet. You hardly ever see anyone over 7 ft 1. So when Yao Ming comes along at 7 ft 6 - and he has stayed at that height consistently for years from what I can tell - that implies doping.
Take a look at the plots in this article -
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/There's categories where 1st place Messi beats 2nd place Ronaldo by as much as Ronaldo beats the average Champions League footballer.
El G would have to run 3:23.00 to be as much of an outlier as Messi is.
It should not be that surprising if someone runs 3:23.00 in the next decade. That person would have to be significantly improved in various aspects over even other Olympic finalists, and might even look different as well. Kiprop is a prime candidate to do this, with his extreme thinness and height. Makhloufi may also qualify, to a lesser extent, with his relatively increased muscle mass.
disgraceful_admin
It should not be that surprising if someone runs 3:23.00 in the next decade.
3:23 seems crazy fast, but for what it is worth, El G claimed he was in 3:24- 3:25 shape.
Good job Torrence wrote:
Tell it like it is. I have no respect for Lagat and much respect for Torrence now. This is a farce of a "US" team now using unbelievably drugged up Kenyans.
And Americans never use PEDs?!
So the summary of your claims against Lagat is that he is too fast to be clean, for his entire 20 year career?
disgraceful_admin wrote:
Take a look at the plots in this article -
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/There's categories where 1st place Messi beats 2nd place Ronaldo by as much as Ronaldo beats the average Champions League footballer.
El G would have to run 3:23.00 to be as much of an outlier as Messi is.
It should not be that surprising if someone runs 3:23.00 in the next decade
With all due respect, you pulled that 3:23 out of ....well, you know, let's say "thin air."
Soccer is a team game, there is no true comparison to running. Being on an "all star" team such that Messi is on, is an advantage in scoring goals and taking shots. However, I won't doubt he is the best in the world, but how far he succeeds everyone else, is debatable because I think there is a lot of variables not factored into that article (and a lot of conjecture baked in).
Also, Kiprop was world jr X-C champ at age 17. He ran 1:43 at age 19. That is an unprecedented combo of Mid-D speed and endurance. He is at 3:26. Now that we've seen what Lagat has done his whole career and even to age 41, he doesn't really seem human. He is at 3:26. El G was a freak who very likely was on drugs (the drug culture of his country, region, and his teammates are well documented.) He ran 3:26. Sure, someone might break this record someday, but I think that, barring new drugs, we are near some human limits. It would DEFINITELY "surprise (me) if someone runs 3:23 in the next decade". I doubt we'll see big chunks taken from this record for a loooooong time. I would say the same thing about 7:20, 12:37, 26:17. Have ANY of these records been touched recently?? No, the only one is the 3:26 by kiprop. Again: world jr X-C champ age 17, and 1:43 speed at age 19. Unprecedented.
The records I mentioned are 12-20 years old. If you expect 3:23 in the next decade, what happened in the last 2 decades that have kept the times so stagnant?? Don't hold your breath for a 3:23 any time soon.
You said this in response to my post. I'm certainly not COMPLETELY convinced he is clean, and I have no problem with overall skepticism, but when people claim he's doping without even a shred of support, or by offering up poor arguments why they think he's doping, that irks me. He has the 2nd best time in the world ever in an event - that's enough to raise some eyebrows, and also enough, when coupled with his training approach and health streak, to explain his success at 41.
I can't for the life of me understand why {otherwise apparently intelligent} people don't see Lagat as dirty.
In every distance event on the track for 1500m - 10,000m times dropped precipitously from about 1990 - 2005 or so, give or take a year on each side. Then when EPO testing becomes more effective along with biological passport and other ways of finding non-analytic positives, the times level off not to be approached since. Lagat is a potential medalist from 1500-5000m in every championship meet between 2000-2012. Think about it for a second - when Dave Moorcroft knocked on the 13 flat door in 82, wouldn't it have been weird for no one to run faster than 13:09 for 8 years?
So you have an era in which we now have proof that there was widespread doping and tainted records across the whole T&F spectrum and Lagat is one of the most dominant figures (in some ways most dominant), but he's somehow managed to stay clean?
Admit it. You don't want to believe that Lagat is dirty. He seems like a genuinely nice guy, he has a family, he works hard. It would be amazing to think that someone could achieve longevity through diet, hard work, managed training, etc so that they could drop a 52 to close a championship 5k at 41. But you have to admit that this is a fairy tale, no less appealing and bewitching than the Hollywood "boy meets girl, loses girl, ..." tried and true formula. Don't be hoodwinked.
It's time to grow up guys. The sport is still insanely dirty and I'd put us at about 1998 terms for cycling. You have incredible corruption in Jamaica, East Africa, Russia and then normal corruption in the US, UK, and others. We haven't really even had the Festina affair yet unless that's Aden's camp.
Nah, I am not buying that, use your head. Aden would have flipped his s**t and squawked all of the intimate details about Torrance if he had given Torrence dope after being thoroughly ratted out by him.
Unsuspicious wrote:
Not suspicious at all. There are much more suspicious runner than Lagat. Lagat is a the lower tiers of suspicion. Torrence is more suspicious because he knows what to use from a suspicious coach, Aden.
yuiop wrote:
Good job Torrence wrote:Tell it like it is. I have no respect for Lagat and much respect for Torrence now. This is a farce of a "US" team now using unbelievably drugged up Kenyans.
And Americans never use PEDs?!
They do just ask Steve Scott