George Floyd / Chauvin trial starts monday

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4 years ago 03/17/2021 2:32pm EDT

re: StevePrefonDead

StevePrefonDead wrote:
[quote]KudzuRunner wrote:
This is a good post. I do, however, question this phrase from you:
"Floyd would almost certainly not be dead if one or more social workers had been quickly deployed to help talk him down from his drug-induced mania and to soften the application of what turned out to be brute force."
Why do you believe this and what is the basis for it?

For better or worse, and due largely to the drugs he'd taken, Floyd was in a hopped-up, panicked state. If you watch the entire police encounter from the moment they show up, you see a guy who is essentially compliant. It takes a long time for the panic to build; it seems like drug-induced claustrophobia, and it kicks into high gear once the cops demand that he get in the back seat of the car. I realize that cops don't have all day, and that they sometimes do finally have to drop the hammer. But given what happened here, and given the fact that Floyd, for all his size, was initially very compliant, it seems evident to me that the presence of a social worker with experience in talking agitated drug users back from the brink would have been a good thing. Surely it would have delayed and hopefully prevented the outcome that did take place.

4 years ago 03/17/2021 2:42pm EDT

re: KudzuRunner

KudzuRunner wrote:
StevePrefonDead wrote:
[quote]KudzuRunner wrote:
This is a good post. I do, however, question this phrase from you:
"Floyd would almost certainly not be dead if one or more social workers had been quickly deployed to help talk him down from his drug-induced mania and to soften the application of what turned out to be brute force."
Why do you believe this and what is the basis for it?
For better or worse, and due largely to the drugs he'd taken, Floyd was in a hopped-up, panicked state. If you watch the entire police encounter from the moment they show up, you see a guy who is essentially compliant. It takes a long time for the panic to build; it seems like drug-induced claustrophobia, and it kicks into high gear once the cops demand that he get in the back seat of the car. I realize that cops don't have all day, and that they sometimes do finally have to drop the hammer. But given what happened here, and given the fact that Floyd, for all his size, was initially very compliant, it seems evident to me that the presence of a social worker with experience in talking agitated drug users back from the brink would have been a good thing. Surely it would have delayed and hopefully prevented the outcome that did take place.

So... is the social worker called only after GF doesn't want to listen to the police and get in the squad car? How long will it take for the social worker to arrive, and what if GF still doesn't want to go in the squad car because he knows it is ultimately a ride to jail for a long time? Does one or more uniformed police officers need to stay with the social worker while they try and convince GF to get in to who's car? I hear about these things but just can't wrap my head around the practical logistics of it.

4 years ago 03/17/2021 3:09pm EDT

re: KudzuRunner

KudzuRunner wrote:
StevePrefonDead wrote:
[quote]KudzuRunner wrote:
This is a good post. I do, however, question this phrase from you:
"Floyd would almost certainly not be dead if one or more social workers had been quickly deployed to help talk him down from his drug-induced mania and to soften the application of what turned out to be brute force."
Why do you believe this and what is the basis for it?
For better or worse, and due largely to the drugs he'd taken, Floyd was in a hopped-up, panicked state. If you watch the entire police encounter from the moment they show up, you see a guy who is essentially compliant. It takes a long time for the panic to build; it seems like drug-induced claustrophobia, and it kicks into high gear once the cops demand that he get in the back seat of the car. I realize that cops don't have all day, and that they sometimes do finally have to drop the hammer. But given what happened here, and given the fact that Floyd, for all his size, was initially very compliant, it seems evident to me that the presence of a social worker with experience in talking agitated drug users back from the brink would have been a good thing. Surely it would have delayed and hopefully prevented the outcome that did take place.

I beg to disagree. GF was extremely confused from the moment the police talked to him in the car - you can hear the cop ask his friends why he is so weird.

Scenario; then the drugs and the realisation start to kick in and he realises he is going away for a long time. he gets disorientated and confused by his shotty reality and starts to rebel. how on earth is a social worker going to help?

Heres a bean bag?

Do you prefer lentils or pulses?

Im not trying to diss the poor unfortunate, disorientated and screwed GF, but pretending a social worker can overcome serious drug and crime related phsycosis in a large and violent man?

Get real.

4 years ago 03/17/2021 3:15pm EDT

re: Burning Bush

One of our friends is a relatively new cop. A couple of weeks ago he was responding to an armed robbery at a fast food joint. As he was arriving on site, the suspect emerged from the building and started firing at the cop car. Our friend took shelter behind the door and had a couple bullets pass through the car door inches from his head. The suspect eventually fled into a trailer park and was apprehended by police after getting shot in the leg by another officer. He had the leg amputated the other day due to infection. Cops risk their lives every day to keep the public safe and people take it for granted and criticize and second guess their every move from behind a keyboard. It is a crazy world that takes the side of criminals over the police who are doing their job.

George Floyd was a career criminal and a liar (9 arrests in Texas for at least two serious crimes and this was at least his second in Minnesota), an addict, and is the one primarily responsible for his ultimate demise. He damaged his heart through habitual drug use, compromised his ability to breathe by ingesting a fatal dose of synthetic opioids in an attempt to hide evidence, escalated the arrest to the point that police had to administer a restraint technique that they are taught to use and is typically safe and lied to police about his drug use that may have impacted the EMS ability to administer life saving reversal drugs when they arrived on site.

4 years ago 03/17/2021 3:19pm EDT

re: comedyre1i3f 3

comedyre1i3f 3 wrote:. It is a crazy world that takes the side of criminals over the police who are doing their job.

It is a crazy world that sees kneeling on an unconscious and dying man’s neck as police doing their job and not criminal itself.

4 years ago 03/17/2021 3:24pm EDT

re: baa baa wool

baa baa wool wrote:
comedyre1i3f 3 wrote:. It is a crazy world that takes the side of criminals over the police who are doing their job.
It is a crazy world that sees kneeling on an unconscious and dying man’s neck as police doing their job and not criminal itself.

I think the bit of the post that you must show is deranged is;

escalated the arrest to the point that police had to administer a restraint technique that they are taught to use and is typically safe

4 years ago 03/17/2021 3:28pm EDT

re: pupil3142

pupil3142 wrote:
baa baa wool wrote:
It is a crazy world that sees kneeling on an unconscious and dying man’s neck as police doing their job and not criminal itself.
I think the bit of the post that you must show is deranged is;
escalated the arrest to the point that police had to administer a restraint technique that they are taught to use and is typically safe

I don’t find kneeling on the neck of an unconscious man for minutes to be “typically safe”, and especially not necessary.

4 years ago 03/17/2021 4:06pm EDT

re: baa baa wool

baa baa wool wrote:
pupil3142 wrote:
I think the bit of the post that you must show is deranged is;
escalated the arrest to the point that police had to administer a restraint technique that they are taught to use and is typically safe
I don’t find kneeling on the neck of an unconscious man for minutes to be “typically safe”, and especially not necessary.

If GF thrashed around tweaking out 10 seconds after DC took his knee off him and cut up his face and knocked out some of his own teeth, would that have been appropriate Policing?

4 years ago 03/17/2021 4:10pm EDT

re: Not all areas are the same

Not all areas are the same wrote:
baa baa wool wrote:
I don’t find kneeling on the neck of an unconscious man for minutes to be “typically safe”, and especially not necessary.
If GF thrashed around tweaking out 10 seconds after DC took his knee off him and cut up his face and knocked out some of his own teeth, would that have been appropriate Policing?

Yes that would have been more appropriate. Wouldn’t have happened though. What other fantasy scenarios would you like me to opine on?

4 years ago 03/17/2021 4:20pm EDT

re: baa baa wool

baa baa wool wrote:
Not all areas are the same wrote:
If GF thrashed around tweaking out 10 seconds after DC took his knee off him and cut up his face and knocked out some of his own teeth, would that have been appropriate Policing?
Yes that would have been more appropriate. Wouldn’t have happened though. What other fantasy scenarios would you like me to opine on?

Why do you feel it "wouldn't happen"? Why is that a fantasy scenario?

Do you think criminals have never tricked cops? Have you never seen druggies tweak out?

4 years ago 03/17/2021 4:27pm EDT

re: Not all areas are the same

Not all areas are the same wrote:
baa baa wool wrote:
Yes that would have been more appropriate. Wouldn’t have happened though. What other fantasy scenarios would you like me to opine on?
Why do you feel it "wouldn't happen"? Why is that a fantasy scenario?
Do you think criminals have never tricked cops? Have you never seen druggies tweak out?

I’m aware of people lying to police and druggies tweaking out. How far are we taking this tangent? It’s clear that you think that kneeling on the neck of an unconscious, dying man is an okay policy to have and it is clear that I don’t. Neither of us are alone.

4 years ago 03/17/2021 4:40pm EDT

re: Not all areas are the same

Not all areas are the same wrote:
baa baa wool wrote:
Yes that would have been more appropriate. Wouldn’t have happened though. What other fantasy scenarios would you like me to opine on?
Why do you feel it "wouldn't happen"? Why is that a fantasy scenario?
Do you think criminals have never tricked cops? Have you never seen druggies tweak out?

I can guarantee the Defense strategy will not be that DC feared for his life or was concerned that GF posed a serious threat once restrained. They will stick to “the drugs killed him” strategy.

4 years ago 03/17/2021 6:56pm EDT

re: Burning Bush

Burning Bush wrote:
If George Floyd was moments away from dying when the police arrived, and they touched him on his shoulder just before he collapsed and died, the police would hardly be guilty of homicide.
The M.E. seemed to think Floyd was going to die on that day regardless of whether he committed a crime and came in contact with the police.
My interest in these types of deaths are based on my once being a police officer and knowing arrest statistics prove that there is no systemic racism. 700,000 police officers made 10,000,000 arrests in 2019 and about two dozen of them involved shooting unarmed suspects. About half of those were African Americans. Of those, after thorough investigations were completed, one of those shootings was ruled as excessive force and the officer was charged with a crime and found guilty and sent to prison.
The biggest problem with police shootings, like Michael Brown, for instance, is that by the time the investigations are over and the facts show the shooting was justified, alarmists who protested with their "hands up, don't shoot" t-shirts have moved on to the next headline grabbing shooting to claim systemic racism and excessive force. They have no interest in the facts or of apologizing to those they libeled.

This is such an odd collectin of non-sequiturs.

What is the relevance of a thought experiment about police touching Floyd's shoulder?

Is racism required in this case? Couldn't it be murder for some other reason? Also, it could be a racist murder without there being systemic racism (that just requires Chauvin to be a racist).

How does the consideration of police shootings prove no systemic racism? What about cases where nobody is shot?

4 years ago 03/17/2021 7:26pm EDT

re: Reflection_

Reflection_ wrote:
Not all areas are the same wrote:
Why do you feel it "wouldn't happen"? Why is that a fantasy scenario?
Do you think criminals have never tricked cops? Have you never seen druggies tweak out?
I can guarantee the Defense strategy will not be that DC feared for his life or was concerned that GF posed a serious threat once restrained. They will stick to “the drugs killed him” strategy.

"The drugs killed him" with regard to fentanyl is interesting and I wonder if there is a precedent. Here is the probem: just about every heroin/fentanyl user will be dependent to the point where they need a blood level high enough to kill me just to feel ok. Alcohol dependence works the same way. I don't doubt GF had enough fentanyl in him to kill ME, but that doesn't lead me to conclude that it would kill him.

I certainly would be concerned if that precedent was set for the large number of opiate and alcohol dependent people in the country.

4 years ago 03/17/2021 7:31pm EDT

re: ChildProgenySupergenius

ChildProgenySupergenius wrote:
Reflection_ wrote:
I can guarantee the Defense strategy will not be that DC feared for his life or was concerned that GF posed a serious threat once restrained. They will stick to “the drugs killed him” strategy.
"The drugs killed him" with regard to fentanyl is interesting and I wonder if there is a precedent. Here is the probem: just about every heroin/fentanyl user will be dependent to the point where they need a blood level high enough to kill me just to feel ok. Alcohol dependence works the same way. I don't doubt GF had enough fentanyl in him to kill ME, but that doesn't lead me to conclude that it would kill him.
I certainly would be concerned if that precedent was set for the large number of opiate and alcohol dependent people in the country.

You’re preaching to the choir, but that will be their defense nonetheless. All you have to do is follow the online talking points.

4 years ago 03/17/2021 7:48pm EDT

re: comedyre1i3f 3

comedyre1i3f 3 wrote:
One of our friends is a relatively new cop. A couple of weeks ago he was responding to an armed robbery at a fast food joint. As he was arriving on site, the suspect emerged from the building and started firing at the cop car. Our friend took shelter behind the door and had a couple bullets pass through the car door inches from his head. The suspect eventually fled into a trailer park and was apprehended by police after getting shot in the leg by another officer. He had the leg amputated the other day due to infection. Cops risk their lives every day to keep the public safe and people take it for granted and criticize and second guess their every move from behind a keyboard. It is a crazy world that takes the side of criminals over the police who are doing their job.
George Floyd was a career criminal and a liar (9 arrests in Texas for at least two serious crimes and this was at least his second in Minnesota), an addict, and is the one primarily responsible for his ultimate demise. He damaged his heart through habitual drug use, compromised his ability to breathe by ingesting a fatal dose of synthetic opioids in an attempt to hide evidence, escalated the arrest to the point that police had to administer a restraint technique that they are taught to use and is typically safe and lied to police about his drug use that may have impacted the EMS ability to administer life saving reversal drugs when they arrived on site.

Think for a moment. Even if you are not familiar with any facts, you ought to be able to realize that police are not at great risk.

Police rarely kill citizens. Do you think citizens kill police a lot more often than police? If not, then surely you realize the police face very low risk in their job. There are many more dangerous jobs, like in construction.

" Cops risk their lives every day" is a ridiculous exaggeration.

Between 2014 and 2019, 245 police officers were shot per year, 42 of them fatally. I don't know the number of cases in which "bullets pass through the car door inches from" an officer's head, but I expect these are rare too. It would have been bad luck and not relevant to the typical police officer's experience.

4 years ago 03/17/2021 11:48pm EDT

re: pupil3142

pupil3142 wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
That isn't an argument; it is a conspiracy theory. But you would know all about those.
All the prosecution has to prove is that death most likely ensued from Chauvin's knee on Floyd's neck. Not difficult.
What is much more difficult is for the defence to show that Floyd likely died from an overdose - and not that the drugs would have probably killed him at some later point. The defence case is more likely to focus on arguing that Chauvin used an appropriate amount of force in the circumstances, which he is authorised to do as a police officer.
But what you are also unable to grasp is that to kill a dying person is also homicide. But then Floyd wasn't dying until he was under Chauvin's knee.
Guy is a moron.
Conspiracy is when two or more people plot together to do something - normally illegal. I just talked about one person. either chauvin or a hypothetical person in ITU. Impossible for a conspiracy, since only one person. I am an enginner, i am professionally competant at counting.
No; 'most likely' is not the standard of proof.
No, defence does not have a standard of proof 'likely died'.
Please understand 'reasonable doubt' and 'burden of proof'.
Yes, i am very happy that killing a dieing person may be homicide.

It is difficult to discuss sophisticated issues with a clod like you. When I was referring to conspiracy issues it was your comment about Covid. But your understanding of any of this is Neolithic - you presume to legal knowledge you don't have - so I won't bother with the rest of your "comment".

4 years ago 03/17/2021 11:50pm EDT

re: Muldoon

Muldoon wrote:
2600 bro wrote:
Lol imagine trying to convince someone that the definition of murder or manslaughter is variable among the various states' judicial systems.
Really missing the forest for the trees here bro.
You lost me, bro. What does what you posted have to do with defending this clearly erroneous statement of law - "if Chauvin applying his knee to Floyd's death cannot be ruled out as a cause then he is guilty of homicide" - made by your friend Armstronglives?
I'm not following what different definitions of murder and manslaughter in different states has to do with anything he posted about claiming to be a legal expert on Minnesota law or what I posted. I'd appreciate it if you would explain or elaborate, then I could maybe respond. Because right now, you lost me, bro. I don't know what you are driving at.

Your last sentence is the only accurate statement you have made in the entire thread.

4 years ago 03/17/2021 11:58pm EDT

re: comedyre1i3f 3

comedyre1i3f 3 wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
The only way Chauvin could get off is if Floyd had a heart attack prior to that act. He didn't. He begged for his life till he died. I would call that murder.
The official cause of death is cardiopulmonary arrest, not suffocation in the autopsy report [which is somewhat indicative of a heart attack, as a heart will attempt to pump harder when oxygen saturation decreases, which, with his already damaged heart (from chronic drug abuse of fentanyl, meth and cocaine), was a recipe for death]. As possible causative factors it lists the restraint, intoxicants and pre-existing heart conditions. It even notes that absent the video of the restraint, an individual with fentanyl serum levels as high as his arriving to the morgue would be assumed to be an overdose death. That there was no indicator of asphyxiation or damage to the airway takes away the argument that the knee to the neck was the sole cause of death, It is not as clear cut as you make it out to be.
The standard restraint technique with someone who is intoxicated is to put someone on their stomach because it is safer than putting them on their back where they can vomit (intoxicants cause nausea) and suffocate on their own puke. People still die using these restraint techniques in mental institutions and prisons even without people on their back and neck due to pre-existing cardiac conditions and the heavy loads of sedatives in their system that cause respiratory distress. The restraint is just one of many factors that lead to his death. He obviously used fentanyl regularly (due to the metabolite levels), but the active fentanyl in his blood and the chewed pills in the back of the cop car indicate he was trying to ingest the evidence before he could get charged with possession or distribution again (he'd been caught with drugs many, many times in the past).
As far as him pleading for his life, it is hard to take the words of a lying career criminal as an absolute truth. He lied about just losing his mom (she died over two years prior), he lied about his drug use "I'm not on nothin'" (which I guess is the truth since it is a double negative), he complained about not being able to breathe while he was talking and before anyone was on his back (which actually may have been the truth and was more of an indicator he was overdosing and going tachycardic due to a combination of respiratory depression from the kill a horse level of fentanyl in his system, elevated cortisol levels from the stress of being arrested, pre-existing coronary heart disease and panicked breathing), He claims he got shot (no idea where that came from). He claims to be claustrophobic. About the only thing he says that is the truth is that he had COVID.

I'm sure he also faked his death while under Chauvin's knee to make it look like Chauvin had killed him - being "a lying career criminal" and all. You left that out. I look forward to hearing the rest of the defence "case" in court - and Chauvin's conviction.

4 years ago 03/18/2021 12:04am EDT

re: Armstronglivs

Armstronglivs wrote:
Muldoon wrote:
You lost me, bro. What does what you posted have to do with defending this clearly erroneous statement of law - "if Chauvin applying his knee to Floyd's death cannot be ruled out as a cause then he is guilty of homicide" - made by your friend Armstronglives?
I'm not following what different definitions of murder and manslaughter in different states has to do with anything he posted about claiming to be a legal expert on Minnesota law or what I posted. I'd appreciate it if you would explain or elaborate, then I could maybe respond. Because right now, you lost me, bro. I don't know what you are driving at.
Your last sentence is the only accurate statement you have made in the entire thread.

I don't think so, you obsessed weirdo.

Here's another accurate statement I made, just one page ago: "As pointed out previously, THIS statement by you - "if Chauvin applying his knee to Floyd's death cannot be ruled out as a cause then he is guilty of homicide" - is a glaring legal error; a misstatement and misapplication of applicable law."

And here's another: "This statement by you - "The defence can only refute that - or, legally speaking, produce a "reasonable doubt" - if it produces evidence strongly suggestive of death from other causes" - is yet ANOTHER glaring legal error; a misstatement and misapplication of applicable law. The standard is wrong and the burden is wrong."

Both of those are accurate. You didn't even try to clear those up. You got nothing to say. You should hire a lawyer and sue that company that gouged you for the fake law degree. You and your confused little buddy 2600bro.

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