doubler is simply publicizing the facts not claiming to have discovered them.
provided he gives due credit and cites his sources i don't see what the problem is. this is how journalism works.
his website gives more credibility to the mad, disorganised ramblings of this thread and brings them to a wider audience in a manner that is far easier to digest.
keep up the good work doubler.
why bother wrote:
doubler is simply publicizing the facts not claiming to have discovered them.
provided he gives due credit and cites his sources i don't see what the problem is. this is how journalism works.
his website gives more credibility to the mad, disorganised ramblings of this thread and brings them to a wider audience in a manner that is far easier to digest.
keep up the good work doubler.
Agreed! And frankly who cares who gets the credit (of which Doubler deserves a lot)? If you care about further outing "Meza the Cheat" and other future cheaters, then do the work MI, LRC posters and whoever else is doing or STFU!
Thanks for that as it confirms it raises money for charity and for whatever reason the banditos scammed it. I'm not really interested in the rest, except for Meza's fast (for him) time and why he passed his bib to Sara Tartof towards the end.
run4life23 wrote:
What is the point of this post? He is a highly accomplished runner who doesn't seem to care for publicity and public accolades. This man was raised in East LA by a single immigrant mother who worked as a seamstress and spoke little English. To say that he and his mom were poor is an understatement. The fact that he became a successful doctor meant he already defeated the odds against him in life.
I know this man personally and I assure you, he runs because he loves it. He doesn't really care if anyone else notices or not. The disqualifications and missed mats happened because honestly (when you are a fast runner, the mats don't always pick up on the chips), he was a little upset, but shrugged it off. As far as pictures being taken, he doesn't even notice cameras or his bib may not have even been showing (like I said, he's a private guy and he knows what he can do).
Again, I never get the sense that he really cares whether or not the world thinks he's great. He's already doing great in many aspects of his life personally and professionally (not related to running). So, feel free to argue or be a non believer, I don't think he cares. But, I assure you, he is not a cheater, he's just a simple man who loves to run. If you still don't believe, go ahead and physically follow him on his next race and please stop posting about stupid cheating ideas, it diminishes the whole sport and the spirit of running. If you all ever met him, you would understand.
I started looking back at the beginning of this thread and found this on page 2. I wonder who "run4life23" is? Those first couple of pages are golden; the seeds of what this thread would become are all clearly visible.
I have to say, I've been following this thread from fairly early on, and have found it absolutely fascinating from the standpoint of what it reveals about human nature. On the one hand you have the bizarre: why does an ostensibly successful and well-liked person feel the need to cheat, not once, but repeatedly, over many years? And the cheating just seems so unnecessary; people admire doctors generally, and I don't think he really needed to add "marathon age-group record-holder" to his resume. My feeling is that the general public doesn't even care that much about running, and inasmuch as they do care, there is not much difference between "finished a marathon" and "set a world record in the marathon"; basically, if you run a marathon, some people will be impressed, and that's about it.
Then you have the crusaders for justice - the people willing to spend hours of their lives looking at reels of photos to expose a fraud. I don't mean to sound like I'm mocking these people, because I personally spent probably several hours altogether looking at splits from Frank Meza's marathons, trying to find "smoking gun"-type impossible splits (of which there are several).
Kudos to Doubler (Derek) of MI and deadesq, btw; you guys are amazing. And many other posters made important contributions back before the thread really developed a life of its own.
Then there is the ever-fascinating and inscrutable Roderick Powell, who has alternated between being Meza's biggest fan and a leading detractor (and did some toggling back and forth for a while), and nobody is really sure what his true role in the whole mess is. I found this great quote from Rod on p.2:
The picture of Frank with the guy in an orange short (bib 16809 Dalmay) at the 10k timing mat disproves that. Some real "research" would show you clearly that what you wrote is untrue. There are many photos of Frank throughout the race. Frank seems to prefer wearing his bib on his shorts. This may explain the reduction in photos. Look at the still photos of Frank. He looks like the sterotype of a 70 year old record setting marathoner. (and he seems to not be sucking in that stomach) Their are many people who must have run with Frank in these events. Ask them if he is the real deal. I will bet the answer is absolutely. Do you really think this quintessential nice guy has been pulling a many year scam, involving many high profile marathons. Do you really think it is that easy to "jump back in" repeatedly and never be caught. Let's see when Frank beats the record on a course certified and sanctioned. It will probably take the course officials to apply for the record, as Frank does not seem to seek glory. Of all the guys to accuse, Frank seems to be the least likely. As a 62 year old runner myself, it does not seem impossible to turn around six weeks later and run another 2:53. (which may be actually 2:53:09 -not 2:53:10) Their are plenty of running books that detail schedules just for such a turn around. Gene Dykes runs quite a tight schedule, including 100 and 200 milers. Or is it 50 and 100. Either way that impresses me.
doubler wrote:
I will buy that hi-res photo.
While an interesting pic, Doubler, I agree with a previous poster who noted this was after Frank finished his "run". The runner in the photo is 13290, who finished the half in 1:35:44. Assuming the half went off on time at 7:30am, this puts him near the finish after 9:00 a.m. The marathon started at 6:00 a.m. and Frank clocked a 2:54:26, with a gun time of 2:57:09, meaning he went across the finish line before 9:00 a.m.
I think the 2016 photos I posted earlier are the more interesting ones because he is clearly entering the course behind a runner who came across at a time closer to Frank's finish time in the marathon. Specifically, these two photos, and the latter one in particular:
https://iconic-imagecdn.azureedge.net/MFT2016-01/07/801907/1011/0037.jpg?preset=phttps://iconic-imagecdn.azureedge.net/MFT2016-01/07/801907/1011/0038.jpg?preset=pThe woman in the photo, #11232, ran a 1:32:00 half, with a 2 second lag from gun time. Since the half went off right at 7:30am, she hit the finish around 9:02 a.m. Frank crossed the start mat at 6:08:21 a.m., and with his elapsed time of 2:55:07, that puts him over the finish line at about 9:03 a.m.
If Frank's cheating hadn't been discovered then it is highly probable that he would have finished a marathon in under two hours within 10 years or so. So sad, so sad, so sad. Maybe he could start running regularly at Lehigh Valley? I don't think they DQ and Frank is just doing it, for fun.
Yes, it is true, I was a big fan of Frank Meza. I now have come to see how slow I was to accept the truth. It is embarrassing to see those posts. Thus I understand Frank Meza’s faithful believers. To them I say, remove your feelings just long enough to look at the evidence of FM’s cheating. To say it is overwhelming would be a gross understatement. To say it was no big deal—well it is a big deal to runners who find world records to be a big deal. It is a big deal to racers, who find cheating of any kind—-to be a blight on the sport of road racing. We runners as a group have made our feeling clear. Frank Meza saying he is not a course cutter, is obviously going to act as a challenge to some really able sleuths who have every right to find out every course he cut.
Derek, thanks very much for your work. If I've contributed anything useful on this thread, I feel no need for you to give credit. The whole point was just to bring information to people's intention, including yours.
I don't know if we'll ever get a complete explanation of FM's method, but I think we can say it works like this:
1. Pick a race that's not too small, not too well organized, and doesn't have too many photographers or timing mats.
2. Start the race around 2 minutes after gun time. That hides you (or the spot you should be) in the masses during the opening miles in many races, and makes calculating splits and relative paces much harder.
3. Get off the course quickly. Make sure you get to every timing mat and as many photographers as you can.
4. Timing is key. You have to hit the timing mats with plausible splits.
5. No bib mules. One picture with someone else's face but your split time, and you're hosed.
6. Try to look inconspicuous, with your bib hidden while you're stretching off course, and visible when you're on course.
7. Need more photos so your photo page doesn't look skimpy? Run the final stretch twice.
My wife got us a Netflix account a month ago. But with this thread to keep me busy, I haven't used it once.
Wow - another amazing find.
I cant recall, deadesq, if you covered LAM 2018 in your previous photo sets.
If one wants to cite a fantastical split in LAM 2018, it's Frank's second 5K, done in 18:57 (20:32 - > 39:27) which I am guestimating put that split at least in the top 30 splits for that segment of all runners. The course rises in elevation from approx 200 ft to 400 ft from mile 3 to 6 and has several ups and downs and many turns according to the map and elevation.
FRANK MEZA 1 1069 - -20:32 39:27 1:01:30 1:23:15 1:42:54 2:07:07 2:26:51 2:46:52
I dont know the course or where the photographers were but that time is ridiculous and not believable.
Golgi Body wrote:
I wonder who "run4life23" is? Those first couple of pages are golden; the seeds of what this thread would become are all clearly visible.
I have to say, I've been following this thread from fairly early on, and have found it absolutely fascinating from the standpoint of what it reveals about human nature. On the one hand you have the bizarre: why does an ostensibly successful and well-liked person feel the need to cheat, not once, but repeatedly, over many years? And the cheating just seems so unnecessary; people admire doctors generally, and I don't think he really needed to add "marathon age-group record-holder" to his resume. My feeling is that the general public doesn't even care that much about running, and inasmuch as they do care, there is not much difference between "finished a marathon" and "set a world record in the marathon"; basically, if you run a marathon, some people will be impressed, and that's about it.
Then you have the crusaders for justice - the people willing to spend hours of their lives looking at reels of photos to expose a fraud. I don't mean to sound like I'm mocking these people, because I personally spent probably several hours altogether looking at splits from Frank Meza's marathons, trying to find "smoking gun"-type impossible splits (of which there are several).
Kudos to Doubler (Derek) of MI and deadesq, btw; you guys are amazing. And many other posters made important contributions back before the thread really developed a life of its own.
Then there is the ever-fascinating and inscrutable Roderick Powell, who has alternated between being Meza's biggest fan and a leading detractor (and did some toggling back and forth for a while), and nobody is really sure what his true role in the whole mess is.
Roderick has clearly become a breakout star in this reality show, with the admirable ability to change his views and argue passionately for both sides of a case -- often within the same sentence. I've genuinely enjoyed his contributions and good nature, as well as his struggles with things like usernames and embedded quotations, with which I can certainly identify.
maybe this wrote:
Derek, thanks very much for your work. If I've contributed anything useful on this thread, I feel no need for you to give credit. The whole point was just to bring information to people's intention, including yours.
I don't know if we'll ever get a complete explanation of FM's method, but I think we can say it works like this:
1. Pick a race that's not too small, not too well organized, and doesn't have too many photographers or timing mats.
2. Start the race around 2 minutes after gun time. That hides you (or the spot you should be) in the masses during the opening miles in many races, and makes calculating splits and relative paces much harder.
3. Get off the course quickly. Make sure you get to every timing mat and as many photographers as you can.
4. Timing is key. You have to hit the timing mats with plausible splits.
5. No bib mules. One picture with someone else's face but your split time, and you're hosed.
6. Try to look inconspicuous, with your bib hidden while you're stretching off course, and visible when you're on course.
7. Need more photos so your photo page doesn't look skimpy? Run the final stretch twice.
My wife got us a Netflix account a month ago. But with this thread to keep me busy, I haven't used it once.
great stuff. Why do you think he was hiding his bib # at Long Beach (picture's been uploaded here a bunch of times). Do you think he believes he was photographed hoping into the course OR do you think someone called him out on the course for jumping in? Just trying to keep you off Netflix. ;)
Oops, sorry, typo, 19:57 (still not believable)
deadesq wrote:
doubler wrote:
I will buy that hi-res photo.
While an interesting pic, Doubler, I agree with a previous poster who noted this was after Frank finished his "run". The runner in the photo is 13290, who finished the half in 1:35:44. Assuming the half went off on time at 7:30am, this puts him near the finish after 9:00 a.m. The marathon started at 6:00 a.m. and Frank clocked a 2:54:26, with a gun time of 2:57:09, meaning he went across the finish line before 9:00 a.m.
Holy cow, I was wrong! I figured the story was done and didn't look closely, but Deadesq's sequence of FM's standing around and stretching isn't from FM's second finish. It's from just before his first trip over the finish line! The photo location is just over a half mile from the finish line on Ocean Boulevard (it's not hard to geolocate).
The 2017 LBM started 10 minutes late at 6:10 AM, so that's why FM crosses the finish line right around the same time (9:07 AM) as the 1:37 HM'ers, not the 1:27 HM'ers. On his second finish, you can clearly see a clock time of 3:23:55.
So this is the nail in the coffin for LBM 2017. What sub-3, record-breaking marathoner in his right mind is going to stretch out and wait around a while a half mile from the finish line?
Derek, buy that high-res picture!
Oxford Comma wrote:
Looks legit wrote:
But it seems like he is only DQ from 2019. They should probably DQ him from 2015, 2017, and 2018.
(Comma or no comma after 2017?)
Sometimes you feel like an Oxford, sometimes you don't.
(I vote no)
Philistine.
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-few-words-about-that-ten-million-dollar-serial-commaA great day for the Oxford comma, in a well-reasoned opinion written by Judge David Barron of the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit:
https://cases.justia.com/federal/appellate-courts/ca1/16-1901/16-1901-2017-03-13.pdf?ts=1489437006I'm confused, can someone lay it out for a simpleton?
deadesq wrote:
bored troller wrote:
nice find! Piss break no doubt.
He must piss in the same spot each year, then. From Long Beach 2017.....
https://imgur.com/a/w3cCOgIYou can actually see him stretching against a car in an earlier frame.
https://imgur.com/a/kLpDV5Z
Need a high res of 1010_049, that may be Frank's accomplice in the black top in front of the car as Frank powers off in to the distance.
maybe this wrote:
deadesq wrote:
While an interesting pic, Doubler, I agree with a previous poster who noted this was after Frank finished his "run". The runner in the photo is 13290, who finished the half in 1:35:44. Assuming the half went off on time at 7:30am, this puts him near the finish after 9:00 a.m. The marathon started at 6:00 a.m. and Frank clocked a 2:54:26, with a gun time of 2:57:09, meaning he went across the finish line before 9:00 a.m.
Holy cow, I was wrong! I figured the story was done and didn't look closely, but Deadesq's sequence of FM's standing around and stretching isn't from FM's second finish. It's from just before his first trip over the finish line! The photo location is just over a half mile from the finish line on Ocean Boulevard (it's not hard to geolocate).
The 2017 LBM started 10 minutes late at 6:10 AM, so that's why FM crosses the finish line right around the same time (9:07 AM) as the 1:37 HM'ers, not the 1:27 HM'ers. On his second finish, you can clearly see a clock time of 3:23:55.
So this is the nail in the coffin for LBM 2017. What sub-3, record-breaking marathoner in his right mind is going to stretch out and wait around a while a half mile from the finish line?
Derek, buy that high-res picture!
Deadesq and maybethis -
Excellent collaboration guys!! This is incredible. More damning evidence.
Random thoughts:
Yes this thread is better than Netflix/hulu. My wife and I watch 24 every night but I ignore it and read this thread. I read this thread first thing in the morning. I read this thread at lunch break. I read this thread as the final act of my day before I fall asleep. It is riveting. Excellent work everyone.
I agree, Rod's flippityflops to the point even in the same sentence are hilarious. And all the broken forum quotes. When this is made I to a movie I really hope he is one of the stars.
Just sayin'. wrote:
deadesq wrote:
He must piss in the same spot each year, then. From Long Beach 2017.....
https://imgur.com/a/w3cCOgIYou can actually see him stretching against a car in an earlier frame.
https://imgur.com/a/kLpDV5ZNeed a high res of 1010_049, that may be Frank's accomplice in the black top in front of the car as Frank powers off in to the distance.
Jetblue Long Beach Marathon! Hello! Motiv Running! You-hoo! Time to get serious: How about some preemptive DQ-ing here before you look really bad? I'm sure JetBlue doesn't want to be associated with these shenanigans. Do they? Or should we flood their PR dept, as well?
Anyway, here's the facebook and email account of the race.
https://www.facebook.com/LongBeachMarathon/lbinfo@motivsports.comMotiv Sports, 3900 E. Mexico Avenue, Suite 1350 Denver, CO 80210
Just sayin'. wrote:
https://imgur.com/a/w3cCOgI
Haha, clearly has his bib hidden in photos as he runs from the car on to the course. Then starts to expose it in the first photo bottom row, second photo spots the photographer, thinks oh shite, if he gets me with my number showing then he'll get the prior ones without it showing and they'll all appear on my photo page, so then he tries to cover his number in the next two.
Hilarious.
Frank 4% wrote:
If Frank's cheating hadn't been discovered then it is highly probable that he would have finished a marathon in under two hours within 10 years or so. So sad, so sad, so sad. Maybe he could start running regularly at Lehigh Valley? I don't think they DQ and Frank is just doing it, for fun.
I think he would have targetted 2:49 for sure. First 70+ to go sub-2:50. Imagine that. He would for sure have beaten Gene to it.
I disagree about the sub-2:00. He's smart enough not to go sub-2:00 before Kipchoge. He knows exactly what times to target. He's doing the math on those splits.
