Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

I followed a "traditional" programme of 1x Tempo, 1x VO2, LR, easy runs in between for a marathon last year with fairly decent results (2:58), and PBs in 5km, 10km, and half. Although admittedly my Tempo runs were probably over reaching and above sub-T for large parts.

I have been keeping up the volume (running an ultra in July) so I should have good base fitness leading into a 16week ish block.

I am signed up for Valencia mara in Dec this year and thinking I'd like to give "Spiroc's" method a go as looks to be sustainable (I am also >40 and full time job), although I would like to include 1 rest day. I would see the only real change to my previous programme is being strict with my tempo session, and substituting the VO2 session for another subT. During my previous block long runs I would throw in some fast finishes, or progressive, so they would turn into a 'Q' workout.

One thing I haven't seen talked about is gym / strength and conditioning. Does Spiroc include this as part of his training?

Have a look at the post from spoc (Sirpoc when he was guest posting) on 7/25/2023. He is of the opinion that CTL is made the same. This belief comes from first hand experience in cycling, expperimenting in getting to the same CTL with a different training make-up and having the same level of fitness (or power FTP in cycling).

i'll paste a snippet here:
Q: One thing I always been curious about also is that is all ctl or training load equal. Are you from cycling background? They use ctl all the time.

A [Sirpoc]: "Yes I used to cycle. I experimented training in a lot of different ways. What I found out (I used to time trial) is that whatever CTL I got to that I could maximally sustain, my power was the same over 10 or 25 miles (key distances for time Trialists). To pluck an arbitratory number at random , say my 20 min power was 340w at a CTL of 60, it didn't really matter HOW I got there. In the sense I could do that power on a range of 7 or 12 hours a week training. The 7 hours may have been sub threshold sweetspot every other day, or the 12 hours may have been lots of slow riding and some vo2 max stuff in a week. I tried 4-5 different ways to get to that CTL number. Each time my power was almost the same."

[...]

I was about the same pbs for a while around the same CTL range. Which was about 50-52. That was on 6.5-7 hours a week.
But now, training using the hobby jogger Norway method, I can reach that higher CTL, for the same time training. Everything I've played around with in both sports, suggests all CTL is created roughly equal. So in that sense, I could go back to running more of a classic running approach, ditch the Norway model , get a CTL of say 60 - and be around the same for 5k I am now. The problem being, it would take me more than 7 hours to get there. Maybe 9. I can't quite squeeze that in. So for the hobby jogger with a life outside of running, the Norwegian model probably gives you the best bang for your buck, even outside of doing doubles. Which I suspect is what Kristoffer, the oldest Ingebrigtsten brother, is doing.

I think what RunnerRunner425 was getting at is that you can't just look at load in isolation. It's easy to design a training plan that would create a higher CTL. Just run a little harder, a little longer.

The whole premise of this approach to training is maximising load while at the same time keeping it sustainable. And, also, within the time constraints that most of us hobby joggers face due to other obligations like, you know, having a life and stuff and things.

That's why in my original post i said "which plan creates the most load - on paper". If you are a savy user of CTL you also know about the concept of ramp rate (i.e. how much TSS you are accumulating week on week), as well as ATL/CTL ratio (acute over chronic training load). Everyone is different and have different tolerance for different parameters for the above.

Absolutely, completely agree. And I would add in that comparing training loads is a futile exercise. The numbers really only have meaning for yourself, and over time, and if you keep your zones current with regards to your fitness levels.

It appeared to me that the key point of keeping it sustainable was what RunnerRunner425 was missing when he asked, so I just wanted to reiterate on it.

I just wrote a long reply and somehow lost it!

Anyway, a shortened version of what I said is that the best plan is the plan that you complete. The plan that gets you to the start line in the best shape you can be in and allows you to absorb the training.

The last few weeks has seen a lot of new people looking at this method in a new light, visiting this thread and the Strava group, engaging in debate and challenging the status quo of what we believe is "optimal training" and it is really exciting.

This isn't a silver bullet though and people need to be aware that trying to find a "secret sauce" or a "cheat code" through some spreadsheet or algorithm won't help if they don't get out there and run. If sirpoc has shown us anything it is that consistency is the key, no matter the method you follow!

Just a note on RPE - sometimes I've felt crappy and RPE was 8, sometimes I felt amazing and RPE was 4 - like almost effortless. Usually it's 6 for me. However just hitting the paces consistently day in and day out is key IMO. Maybe the following easy day is slower (should feel relatively the same if we're doing 70% MHR). But RPE can be misleading and hard to gauge especially if you're newer.

To roulette wheel, I'd recommend slowing the paces down by ~10-20 seconds and slowly ramping up. Again, IMO, you should be able to hit the last rep 10-20 seconds faster than the previous reps (not that you should, but that's how it should feel)

I would say this is as good a guide to RPE you will find, I've said pretty similar before. I have never done a normal session I don't think and it been more than a 6. A 5 is pretty much the mean. ( Marathon special block, some of those are nasty we are looking 7-8, but they aren't meant to be regular or sustainable) Sometimes a long run in the marathon build I would say is a 3-4 especially beyond 1 hour 45 mins. But, as I was practicing fuelling a lot more recently to get used to the gels, they became even easier and 3 tops. Just a standard easy run is nothing really. The only hard bit is how boring it is.

As for the HR debate, it was an arbitratory line in the sand I drew. Two main reasons being 1. It'll likely mean 99% of people are under LT1 and after 10-15 mins can experience almost no or very little cardiac drift and 2. To stop people pushing the easy days and trying to eek out load when that isn't the purpose of the non workout days.

The pace really doesn't matter too much. People's gap between race paces and easy pace can completely vary. Just keep it easy. I know I would run into trouble big time if I started to talk about easy at like 75% MHR. I cannot even fathom running that every day and still feeling fresh. But that doesn't mean someone else can't. Although I'm not convinced it's really accomplishing much more. I picked % MHR, as it's again such a simple calculation for anyone to understand and plug and play.

One thing I will say is to stay disciplined and really pull this off, you absolutely have to have hard rules and lines in the sand you don't cross or you just become dishonest with yourself or push the limits. It's probably the biggest thing to be honest. Obviously one workout too hard and one easy day too fast anyone can handle. That's not the point. It's understanding once you get into the habit over time that's when the wheels can start to come off and you may as well just have trained another way as you'll likely have to take a down week at some point like I was doing with Daniel's, which is ultimately why I think I went back to how I trained on the bike and coming up with this anyway.

Anyone training like this or wants to adapt it, that is fine. But I always tell people to think about this. Could I take my most recent week (outside of the marathon special block) and barring injury, basically do it forever it you had to? If the answer is no you haven't got the balance right quite yet. As the only magic from all this is the aggregated accumulation of the impact of load over a long stretch of a theoretical long term point A to B , versus most other training plans on time crunched hours.

I agree on the strong aerobically and awkward mechanically. It really through off my race as well, still ran fastest 5k since 2016, but was odd how legs felt. Had a good kick too, even though I got a little soft the 3rd mile

Great layout Sirpoc. One question I have, if I'm not racing until the fall, should I just roll with the 3 subT days, 3 easy days, and one long run? Never any racing or harder efforts until the fall?

Try doing the 400m/90s reps once in a while?

I suspect that the "awkward mechanically" feeling is a lack of Strides (not that you have to do them).

Something's wrong if you can't hold the pace. Unless you're a very new runner on very low volume? Or there's something off about your race conditions and your workout conditions, or the GPS. There shouldn't be any question of completing the workout if you try hard enough. But it's important to not try too hard or else you won't be hitting the optimal intensity.

When I do HM pace reps, or a little faster than HM pace, the reps feel like the 1st-3rd miles of a HM. Maybe 4th mile at worst. In an actual HM I'm already at a clearly higher RPE by the 5th mile. I'm sure this varies a bit person-to-person but I think this is probably pretty common.

A key point of this training is that you're never carrying much fatigue. Sure, a taper would get you a bit fresher. But you're always pretty fresh, ready to rip a hard workout or hop into a race and do pretty well. If I have a slower workout, I always could've tried harder and hit the goal paces. But the slower day might mean I'm not recovered enough from my last one so I'm happy to have a slower workout. Hopefully in the next one, the faster paces come easily.

If I'm often struggling to hit the paces I should be, then I'd think about taking a down week to get fully recovered and start up again at a lower training load (lower weekly mileage or lower the volume of the workouts by doing shorter reps or fewer reps). You've got to find the training load that you can currently handle. Two people with the same PR could be capable of very different training loads. Be conservative and then slowly increase the training load.

Sometimes it's your easy pace. As people have just been discussing, easy pace varies a lot. If yours is on the fast side, you could try slowing it down and see if that helps you handle the training load you're currently aiming to do.

What mileage and workouts was sirpoc doing on the Daniels training plan, to be running 18:50?

Some of the workouts can feel tough if you follow the guidelines exactly. For example my half time is quite good compared to my 5k (1:18:42 vs 17:34) so doing 3x2 mile is a very honest effort for me. Mile reps at 5:55-6:00 much easier.

When this thread started, there was no long run. What is the recommendation for the long run, if not training for a marathon, but training for a 1/2 marathon. Should the long run be kept to 70% of max hr, or just at an easy steady pace?

The long run for anything up to half marathon is just 75-90min at whatever your easy day pace is. For some that's been the 70% MHR, others use HRR, some RPE, etc.

It's just a glorified easy day.

Time on feet has worked fine for me. When I was going for 1:15 half back in late 2023, I aimed for 75 mins on feet. Was around 18.5km I seem to remember? It certainly wasn't 21km, as the race was my longest ever run. For the marathon recently, aimed for 2:23-25 long run which was my range I felt. Seems to have worked out well. If I only cared about 5-10km, there would be no long run. Always glorified easy. Even at 2 hours+ little or no cardiac drift. Just tick it off, get used to the legs working for the time you need to and move on with your day.

Not even those 10x1k which you're running roughly at 10k pace? The other workouts I can see as being fairly chill -- but 10x1k with only 60s recovery would definitely be closer to an 8 for me most of the time.

The original Norwegian Hobby Jogger has just started training for his first marathon too btw, gonna be interesting to see his take on this. First session was a 6x2.5km at what's probably his current M pace.