Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Hello from page 237. I have nothing to add whatsoever. I'm just starting the Method and want to post my 2025 PB's here to return to in 7 months after the Valencia marathon.

5K 18:38

10K 38:19

HM 1:27:20

FM 3:13:03

Running since 2020 with the exception of 2021 due to injury, and racing since 2023.

Been through many 8-12 week builds for the shorter distances. At best, I arrive flat and exhausted to the start line, PB marginally, and then require 2-4 weeks of just easy pace because I'm sore and burnt out. At worst, I have to quit the plan due to an injury picked up in the high-end race pace work.

Also slogged through 3 marathon cycles using the more "traditional" approaches, suffering every time through the big continuous blocks of MP and steady/progressive long runs. I wash up on the taper just relieved to be done and while I've gotten faster (5:08 - 3:29 - 3:13) I've had the same race experience every time, i.e. 21 mile tempo run followed by a sad jog.

Figure this is worth a committed try. Not expecting a cheat code but I've nothing to lose, worlds to gain. I might not have the aerobic engine of an ex-cyclist but my 5K puts me in a similar place to the man himself when he was beginning. Already two weeks in I've noticed I'm actually enjoying the 3 sessions, not dreading rep 1 during my warmup like in the past, and recovering well in between them.

Like I say, back in 7 months. All the best folks!

What is really crazy to me is you can run 7-8 hours a week, do virtually zero marathon paced or quality long runs and run 2:24 first go? Almost just seems to good to be true. But I can see the appeal, if it really is possible then maybe guys like me can dream training smarter might make me break 3.

Do many of you do 3x3200m repeats? Seems like staple of sirpocs training but quite a tough workout.

I do 3 x 10 min every week. For me it is much less than 3.2k unfortunately.

Would it be wise to start this 16 weeks to go to marathon?

I'm not convinced switching it up 16 weeks out from a marathon will lead to a massive gain in the short-term. It seems like this method pays off after following it consistently for 1-2 years.

Alright, I'm back. Lots of good discussions here already. Lots I want to contribute to already, but I feel like with the quality of the discussion, I owe it to gain some actual experience with the system before I start throwing out my opinions here.

So, for now, I'll just share a bit about where I'm coming from as I begin this system of training.

Picked up running in my early thirties back in 2017. Got hooked after a while with my eyes on the marathon from day one. Got my volume up to around 70-80 km / 50 miles per week fairly quickly. Ran my first marathon the next year following a standard Pfitz plan peaking out at 110 km / 70 miles per week. Stuck more or less to the following template the next few years:

- Threshold intervals (typically 10 x 1k, 5 x 2k, 25 x 400m)
- Continuous tempo run (8-12km or even longer)
- Moderate/hard long run (usually hitting aerobic threshold, sometimes approaching LT towards the end)

My weekly volume tended to be in the range between 100 - 120 km (60 - 75 miles).
Fitness improved fairly quickly, and in 2019 I broke the vdot 60 limit. Less than a year later, in mid-2020, I set my strongest PB (as measured by vdot) with a 10k worth 62.4.
After that, my consistency problems started. In my case it wasn't injuries, but rather a ridiculous number of layoffs due to illness. Not only that, every time I got sick it would take me at least two, usually three weeks before I could get back to normal training again.

Every single time it absolutely wrecked my fitness.

Blinded by the grind as I were, I just thought this was life with two small children. Bad luck and all that, I guess. I didn't dwell too much on the fact that, despite being someone with a developed and functioning immune system, I was sick more often and way longer than both kids ever were.

Anyways, I never bettered that 62.4 vdot, but came close with my half marathon PB in 2023, which was worth 62.3. I was training for a marathon at the time, and absolutely flogging myself every week, going too hard in all sessions and long runs, and probably on the easy days as well. I was mentally and physically exhausted, and when I got sick again it was nearly four weeks before I could get back to training (10-6 weeks before the marathon) I said "that's it, I'm done" to my wife.

In the nearly two years that's passed since, I've focused on letting my body recover. I've spent time learning about diet and how to properly fuel an active lifestyle — and learned that I was probably struggling with a (mild) case of RED-S due to consistently inadequate fuelling during my years of running. My immune system has regained normal function, and, in addition to jogging 3-5 times per week, I've even spent some time in the gym adding some muscle. (I had literally zero!)

But all of that is just kinda "meh" compared to running. I played football (soccer) in my youth and early adulthood, and leaving that behind left a real hole in my life. Running and chasing running goals is the only thing I've "chased" as an adult that comes even close to that, and I knew I wasn't ready to let it go permanently. Since picking it up, I always imagined myself out there competing as a masters runner.

This spring, the spark returned.

But I knew I couldn't go back to doing the same thing I had been doing. So I gave myself some restrictions:

- No doubles, only one run per day
- No gruelling long runs

Maybe it means I won't PB again. But that's fine, because this time I'm in it for the long run. And I think these restrictions are conducive to that. Thinking about how to best structure the week within these constraints, I happened across this thread again. And here I am.

Next post, I'll write about how I'm approaching the Norwegian Singles method. I've got about 10,000 words of notes and clippings from the first (now) 30 pages of this thread and the Strava group. Writing down how I'm interpreting it should help clarify it to myself as well. Maybe I'll be back later tonight, or tomorrow.

In the meantime, keep up the great discussion guys. It's inspiring seeing and hearing what all of you are thinking and how you are doing!

I'm gonna have to side with sirskeptic84 on this. I just don't think 16 weeks is the right timeframe to be thinking about this system.

Not saying that you won't progress, but my impression is that the "secret" here is in putting in the work week after week, month after month, and then gradually improving.

If you're prepared to not make any judgement on the method based on how you perform in your marathon 16 weeks from now, I'd say go for it.

Good to see someone else embark on this journey now! Your experiences ring true to me as well.

I think, at worst you'll have found a more sustainable approach to running that will let you improve bit by bit for years and years. No matter where that means you'll end up, I think that's a more enjoyable way to do it ocmpared to the slog of those cycles where you end up limping to the starting line and hoping that you'll survive.

Could anyone calculate for me the training load from 60 minutes at 6:40 vs 37 minutes at 6:10?

I do. It's hard if you set your pace too fast but properly run it's really the same as 10x1k or 6-7x1600 or 5x2k or the such, just maybe mentally a bit more of a grind. But physically it should be quite calm and steady.

So, just to clear up some confusion, sirpoc did extend his workouts in the marathon build, eventually building up to 5x5k which is no slouch of a workout. Further, long runs are in fact helpful for the marathon, and many of us do them, just at an easier pace (<70% MHR) than we would in many other training programs.

As a follow up to MartyMonkey's post on page 229, here's a an overview of the 15 week training block sirpoc followed for others to glance over without trawling through the poor lad's Strava, split into the distinct phases suggested in Monkey's post. Key workouts are highlighted in light red (standard ST) and dark red (extended interval lengths of 5-8km):

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As I said above, I don't believe this is a magic three month routine that can just be followed by any hobby jogger to get them a wicked fast marathon time - that comes with the years of rigerously following the E-T-E-T-E-T-L consistently. However, it is interesting to take a look at the structure of the training plan compared to more traditional approaches.

You get it about every 10-14 days, but not at a super high intensity. In fact, sirpoc mentioned he only has a 2 minute test for these vs 1 minute because his usual loop crosses a road where a 1 minute recovery would have him waiting on traffic, not for any reason of load or actual recovery need.

The 3 months is the icing on the cake. The true work came in the 6 months before and even further in the past. If you put together a chart or spreadsheet again of the 26 weeks before. It'll look almost identical, apart from the last 5 weeks or so.

The wild part is when people talk about A or B races. Dude just casually planned to drop in 3 A race performances in 6 weeks like it's nothing. That alone tells you this is a way more sustainable approach.

I totally agree though and I have seen him point this out himself on Strava, this isn't a good training plan for the marathon. It's a good training plan for the marathon for someone already on the sub t train.

We have a real problem here that people are going to look at this as blocks, which they aren't. The MF is back in training already and has already done the first 3x3200 and I'm sure we will see something similar tomorrow and so on. It never ends until it ends.

Regarding the 10-14 day gap for these longer reps, is the idea to not do them rigidly 7 days apart - say every Monday? I hadn’t seen that discussed yet.

I find it pretty hard to get my head around that someone ran a 2:24 at 41 years on in their first marathon on what was a crappy London day, on that training. It's the sacrificing of quality in the long run and it being super easy I guess I cannot get my head around. It just goes against just about anything that anyone would suggest.

I will say this. The guy is a machine at keeping it sustainable. Must be so hard to not just rip into workouts if you are feeling good but then you blow the next one. To see it laid out like that and executed is like a neat piece of art.

I train about 8 hours a week but I don't think I have the balls to jump into a Marathon like that. The shocking thing is it's pretty much in line with what you would expect, based on his 10k and half. If anything, having run London myself, I would say everyone was quite a bit down on normal so this might actually be his best performance? Even still I am not brave enough to just jog at under 70% max HR for a long run and hope for the best.

I've always thought sirpoc training was outside the box but this is too much even for me lol

You have to have full respect though, the guy really does deliver. I've read a ton of the thread and all the time people have dropped in saying you can't do this, you can't do that and the performances still improve, still come. I think he's of the school of cycling, aggregation of marginal gains. Even if you train like this madman there's clearly a ton of small pieces that also go into it, thst you'd have to really unpick.

I do 3x 3000m fairly regularly. It’s right around 12 minutes for me. I like it better than some if the shorter reps TBH, given there’s less starts/stops so the whole workout feels smoother.