Nice posts here. The difference between Kristopher and Sirpoc over the last year is a fable in itself. Kristopher is getting cute with it (weights, X factor sessions, etc) and he gets injured, meanwhile Sirpoc just keeps grinding away. Kristopher's HM PR is 1.12.11-- SIR MF POC SPLIT FASTER THAN THAT IN ROUTE TO 2:24. They aren't in the same league. In real time it seems like nothing is changing and that the progress is so slow, but not getting injured will put you in different stratosphere of fitness compared to others if given enough time and consistency.
When I started the Sub t routine about a year ago I was underwhelmed with the progress I was making. I was running more, not getting injured fortunately, but my 5k just wasn't getting faster. A few weeks ago I had a break through 10k performance and I now realize that I'm in a whole new domain of fitness. It takes a while for some. I'm probably not as talented as many (don't absorb and adapt to training as well) BUT I didn't get injured and now I'm in the shape of my life. In contrast, I have friends that are in a never ending injury cycle and think that it's normal. It's not normal, your training is f'ed. Before the sub T routine, I was foam rolling, dynamic stretching and strength training for "injury prevention." I've now dropped all of that. The most important things for not getting injured are intensity control and good shoes IMO, both of those things I got from Sirpoc.
Comparing Sirpocs training vs other marathon programs is interesting. It doesn't look like much on paper, no real monster sessions apart from the 5x 5k compared to Daniels or Canova, but dang, when you dig into it's a large body of work. Marathon training culture is like "if you are not dying, doing monster session, almost getting injured, barely making it, you're leaving gains on the table." Maybe we need to take a step back and ask if we're truly benefiting more than we're risking with this approach. You can't outrun your body of work so why cram fitness with sessions you're not ready for and risk injury?
This is great post. Enjoyed the thought this is great post. Enjoyed the thought that went into it. There's obviously top contributors to this thread like Hard2find (where is he?!) , shirtboy, jiggy (haven't seen post in a while?) , but I have enjoyed your posts chillruns as you have dropped in and outhat went into it. There's obviously top contributors to this thread like Hard2find (where is he?!) , shirtboy, jiggy (haven't seen post in a while?) , but I have enjoyed your posts chillruns as you have dropped in and out. I am a mere mortal like yourself so it's a good to read your thoughts.
I appreciate the shout out.
I'm still checking on the thread, albeit less regularly. As for not posting, I just did not feel that I had something meaningful to add into the conversation lately. Pretty much all that's needed has been both said and done.
I do plan to do some more testing soon, lactate and respiration rate. I've been postponing the latter for a while now..
Since CTL is an important metric for this method, how are people who have followed it closely tracking this? A website like intervals.icu? Your own excel spreadsheet? Are most people using heart rate or pace to calculate TSS and CTL?
I'm in exactly the same position as you. My takeaway on what sirpoc has shown is that the type and/or amount of improvement caused by training at an intensity corresponding to moderately elevated lactate levels is so much greater than for other training intensities that, for someone who is not already training the sirpoc way, there will be a volume of training that is smaller than what you're currently doing that would yield the same or better results if that smaller volume of training has an intensity distribution along the lines of what sirpoc did.
Personally, my plan is to do a few months of exactly what sirpoc has been doing and see if I get better or worse, then adjust from there.
I'm not saying don't do this, but be prepared for the worst. I've been speaking to Hard2find about this a lot and basically looking to plot load vs. performance vs natural vs responders. For the most part, more is going to be more, until it's not. That doesn't necessarily mean more hours, but I said last week; the impact of load itself is probably 9/10 of the puzzle as a minimum. The actual composition of the training itself, is way less important.
I don't think as I've said many times before that there is anything magic about sub threshold, but it's:
1. Probably an easy range to recover from in 48 hours even with an easy run sandwiches in-between
2. Providing a large chunk of the stimulus of two more traditional workouts, whilst then being able to sneak in a third.
If this works for you at the 5k-HM range, I would also be pretty shocked if this didn't work for a marathon. But my caution would be to anyone already doing like 10+ hours a week and coming down to my range, it might simply be making you worse slowly in the same way increasing the load makes you better slowly (which is mainly why people improve like this, they simply are absorbing a more consistent load without the boom and bust).
Good point, and thanks for the response. My current approach isn't working for me at all--I'm consistently too tired to perform well in races even with a taper--so I will happily be a guinea pig and report back over the next months and years as to what happens.
I don't think as I've said many times before that there is anything magic about sub threshold
BTW I do wonder if there might be something magic about it. One thing that occurred to me when following this thread is that at sub threshold intensity, there are sizeable contributions of both carbohydrate and fat to the body's fuel mix, rather than primarily one or the other. It could be that it's particularly efficient to train both systems at the same time, especially given that it's a rather long period of time since each workout has about 10k at that intensity. It could also be that generating a moderate amount of lactate allows training of the lactate clearance mechanisms but doesn't cause an overload of stimulus, and that this results in adaptation to a greater extent than an overload would.
I have the same question — I've been using Intervals.icu and my fitness score feels off. A high CTL should translate to high fitness, either through races or workouts. But when I backtest, my fitness score was really low during the time I was in the best shape of my life. I started running in December 2023 and since then, I've been stuck in a loop of 2–3 months of training, setting a PB, then getting injured for 3+ weeks. So my CTL looks like a rollercoaster. Should I just ignore it until I can run consistently for more than a few months?
Since CTL is an important metric for this method, how are people who have followed it closely tracking this? A website like intervals.icu? Your own excel spreadsheet? Are most people using heart rate or pace to calculate TSS and CTL?
I can’t say for sure, but I think Hard2Find created a spreadsheet and linked it here or in the Strava group or both. If so, I’m also sure how many people have used it and with what success, but I do recall him being an astute contributor.
Has Sirpoc or someone else built a generic plan showing his Norwegian singles training into the marathon? I would be interested to see a ~16 week build summary with the changes highlighted
I have the same question — I've been using Intervals.icu and my fitness score feels off. A high CTL should translate to high fitness, either through races or workouts. But when I backtest, my fitness score was really low during the time I was in the best shape of my life. I started running in December 2023 and since then, I've been stuck in a loop of 2–3 months of training, setting a PB, then getting injured for 3+ weeks. So my CTL looks like a rollercoaster. Should I just ignore it until I can run consistently for more than a few months?
It's really impossible to tell what your CTL was in the past, as all your metrics could be way off if you have just back run all the data. Only real way to tell is start again and seed it, or just run it through for 4-5 months and let the older stuff drop off a bit. After 42 days it'll sort itself out a bit but really you should probably wait a good few months. Sirpoc I think posted a while back about how it you started from a CTL of 0 and ran 100 TSS a day, it would actually only be about 67 after the 42 days. And take a couple hundred I think to reach the 100 rounded. Your best bet is to put your threshold pace again and build some good data whilst it all sorts itself out, obviously updating your threshold pace as soon as you are aware things change.
Has Sirpoc or someone else built a generic plan showing his Norwegian singles training into the marathon? I would be interested to see a ~16 week build summary with the changes highlighted
Check out Strava, Sirpoc is on there and his runs are logged.
He is one of the Admin for the Norwegian Singles Approach group
For a really good laugh, have him share his prerace fueling strategy. If people are not believing the 2:24 as happening, or happening off his training at least, his fueling before and night before meal will likely trigger 90% of LRC readers
Genuinely curious what he had pre race? Fuelling during?
A lot of posts and a bump just incase it'll get answered.
I have the same question — I've been using Intervals.icu and my fitness score feels off. A high CTL should translate to high fitness, either through races or workouts. But when I backtest, my fitness score was really low during the time I was in the best shape of my life. I started running in December 2023 and since then, I've been stuck in a loop of 2–3 months of training, setting a PB, then getting injured for 3+ weeks. So my CTL looks like a rollercoaster. Should I just ignore it until I can run consistently for more than a few months?
I have just finished an 18/70 Pfitz marathon block and am open to trying something new.
I'm looking at a summer of shorter stuff and maybe a half in September/October and thought I'd give this a go.
My main point is that I'm not sure I want the 70 mile weeks of Pfitz and would like something else but if I cut down to 60 and did this method is there a possibility of not seeing results? Is there a way of calculating the training load of a planned "SirPoc" block and comparing against JD or Pfitz?
Race: SIS Beta Gel was the plan every 5k. That worked fine, until somehow I went to my pockets at 30km and there were none left. It's odd as I remember being careful getting them out and should have been two left. Maybe I got the traditional London pickpocket treatment. Also took a drink I think at every water station. Was so frazzled at around 37km I took a lucozade and thought it was water and poured it over me and got the sticky eye treatment.
Pre race. Woke up early , probably max 3 hours sleep. Golden Syrup porridge with a coffee. Then ate like every 15-20 mins up until about half hour before start. Banana X2, another coffee, a giant cookie, doughnut, a Mars Bar duo and a gel in the starting pen.
Pre race. Woke up early , probably max 3 hours sleep. Golden Syrup porridge with a coffee. Then ate like every 15-20 mins up until about half hour before start. Banana X2, another coffee, a giant cookie, doughnut, a Mars Bar duo and a gel in the starting pen.
Pre race. Woke up early , probably max 3 hours sleep. Golden Syrup porridge with a coffee. Then ate like every 15-20 mins up until about half hour before start. Banana X2, another coffee, a giant cookie, doughnut, a Mars Bar duo and a gel in the starting pen.
Screw the training. I’ll PR if I just stuff more porridge in my … gob, is it?
Since you’re rather light, you probably won’t need 2400 kcal for a marathon. That’s why the missing gels likely had no impact on your performance. With your glycogen stores full, the carbs from breakfast, plus the gels you did have, you probably even had a bit of fuel left in the tank at the end. And for anyone wondering about the breakfast — in the end, you just need carbohydrates, pretty much no matter what form they come in.
Pre race. Woke up early , probably max 3 hours sleep. Golden Syrup porridge with a coffee. Then ate like every 15-20 mins up until about half hour before start. Banana X2, another coffee, a giant cookie, doughnut, a Mars Bar duo and a gel in the starting pen.
Outstanding! Going to test this nutrition strategy at my next parkrun.
Ripping through his Strava, I took his Jan. 12th 10km as a key race and end of a "block" and started with the Marathon training block analysis from Jan. 13th through April 27th (London). Maybe that's wrong, but oh well.
105 days in a row of running, Ave. 70mpw, Max 78, min, 57
~4 Phases, with overlaps:
1. Sub T Base - Weeks 1 - 6 - Standard Norwegian singles approach, with an increase in long runs from 15.7mi to 18.6 miles. 3 SubT workouts per week, volume rock steady near 70mpw.
2. Interval Length Increase - Weeks 7-11 - Here, we see more 5k reps, max work goes up to 15km in a session vs. ~10km in a session in the previous weeks. Peak week was week 11 with a 20.5mi LR.
3. Race Specific / Special - Weeks 12-14. Largest session here came ~12 days before the race with a 3x8km (24km) session. "Special" Workouts Last workouts ~12, 7 days before marathon
4. Taper / Race - Weeks 14-15. EZ volume taper starts week 14. Week 14 still has two "special" workouts (largest vol. workout on Tuesday, and a medium LR of 15 miles with 3x3k in it). The overall volume of the taper is a lot smaller than other programs. Workouts shift to line up more recovery before the marathon. The final week (MP week) includes small workouts of 6mi total with 5km.
Notes:
Max LR: 20.5miles, hit twice in weeks 9 and 11. LR: Not nearly the focus many rec. runners make it, not many MP filled LR runs which beat you down (13@mp etc.)
Specific ("special" or gMP) workouts come much later in the block than other programs. Key sessions in last two weeks: 5x5km (25km volume) and 3x8km (24km vol) and a half marathon as a stimulus (See Matthew Richtman and his training).
Average length of reps increases, but 1k reps are the steady base over time and carry through the whole build. Every week has 3 workouts or 2 workouts and a race, this never deviates even if the volume is modulated.
Not Shy about Racing - Races two 5ks, a 10k and a Half in the build up.
Some questions to Sirpoc:
1. How did you feel the last three weeks of your marathon build, from the half onwards? Did you feel you were pushing more than your typical week(s)? How about the timing of this specific work coming much later in your marathon plan?
2. Was there anything you would change in a future marathon build?
Pre race. Woke up early , probably max 3 hours sleep. Golden Syrup porridge with a coffee. Then ate like every 15-20 mins up until about half hour before start. Banana X2, another coffee, a giant cookie, doughnut, a Mars Bar duo and a gel in the starting pen.
I'd be diabetic before the race even started, lol.