I think you are probably beyond the mileage or time this was designed for? Think hobby jogger, the classic working dad who has an hour a day and can maybe do a bit more at the weekend. If you can already train more than that, I think sirpoc himself has said there's plenty of stuff on doubles that is probably better. This is best bang for buck. It's not a miracle cure.
But that's where this thread sits alone. A large percentage of people fit into that bracket above which is why it appeals. I'm never gonna run 2:24 but I can dream I could run 2:24 on around 7-8 hours a week and building up to 120km peak weeks. Whereas I can't imagine having the time let alone will to copy guys doing 12+ hours week, doubles and probably 160+km regularly.
It's just really cool to see someone run a jaw dropping time , training smart , on mileage we could probably all do. I work on the assumption just about everyone bar a few exceptions could find an hour a day to train, if they really wanted to. This thread teaches you how to absolutely maximise your potential, for that time invested.
For sure, it’s been awesome to see what sirpoc has been able to do with what many would say is a limited schedule. I guess what I’m looking for is how people would apply these principles to a slightly higher mileage, but not mileage so high I’m going to be doing double thresholds twice a week like Jakob.
The way I see it, the goal with this system is pretty straightforward: get the most training load without getting injured. Even 10 hours a week of strictly easy running is pretty taxing. I think you'd want to ease into it and slowly accumulate training load week after week. If you’re already doing a lot of mileage, you might be better off scaling back to around 8 hours a week to start. That could look like 40 minutes of sub-threshold work, a 2-hour long run, and the rest filled in with easy running. Stick with that for a few months and if you’re still feeling strong and want to add more, you could start slowly increasing training load with doubles on your easy days and build up the sub-threshold sessions. That said, 40 minutes might be the upper limit for sub-threshold before you hit diminishing returns. At that point, doing double threshold might make more sense. I'm not convinced the singles method works correctly for high mileage. You might be able to get away with 50 mins of sub threshold but I don't think most of us can hold that consistently (the main goal of this is consistency anyways, right?). To really stay in line with the idea of maximizing load while keeping recovery in check, you’ll probably need to start doubling like Jakob.
Just my 2c from this thread, I'll let king poc and others correct me!
Rumors are, that on the corner by the Tower Bridge there is a nice pub and Sirpoc was going for a pint to put me wrong. We will never know that for sure ...
You know things got mad when lexel has 13 upvotes with no down votes and actually made a funny joke.
Kudos to sirpoc. Thread deserves to be trending right now. So many doubters. I would imagine so much pressure to actually deliver as time has gone on. Praise is often over done to those who don't deserve it, this is not one of those cases. If anyone asks what a time crunched runner should do, it's basically an auto link to understanding the fundamentals of this thread and the likelihood is they are golden.
Someone already pointed it out, but the brojo's should be thankful this thread even exists on their crappy designed outdated website.
Here mostly, and occasionally on Advanced Running. If CoolRunning or Dyestat were around, than maybe (at least the original 5k-13.1 NSM) there'd be some talk.
But neither Roche (Outside) nor Citius, nor other big influencers like Ali on the Run, Choi or Floberg have heard of this or touched on it (maybe they have and I missed them, to be fair).
Have you worked out the rough total mileage you might end up doing if you were to do the standard setup? When I switched to this method I actually ended up at the same weekly mileage and TSS I had previously been doing, but with 1-1.5hrs less needed.
Anyway you could start with increasing the volume on SubT sessions first (better TSS/hr) and then increasing your easy run duration. So you could work your way up from 30' SubT -> 36' SubT -> ~40-45' SubT volume and then up to 75' (or do this before you stepup to the 40-45' SubT volume) for your easy runs before having to start doubling. And also gradually increasing your long run leading up to the marathon. Pad some more longer warmups/cooldown to the SubT sessions if you want to get more volume in.
As for adjusting to the marathon approach, someone summarized the themes from sirpoc's recent marathon build here:
He ended up completing those 5k reps at 16:45-17:00 time elapsed. To generalize it more, a reasonable time-based version would be 3-5x15' reps.
For sure, it’s been awesome to see what sirpoc has been able to do with what many would say is a limited schedule. I guess what I’m looking for is how people would apply these principles to a slightly higher mileage, but not mileage so high I’m going to be doing double thresholds twice a week like Jakob.
The way I see it, the goal with this system is pretty straightforward: get the most training load without getting injured. Even 10 hours a week of strictly easy running is pretty taxing. I think you'd want to ease into it and slowly accumulate training load week after week. If you’re already doing a lot of mileage, you might be better off scaling back to around 8 hours a week to start. That could look like 40 minutes of sub-threshold work, a 2-hour long run, and the rest filled in with easy running. Stick with that for a few months and if you’re still feeling strong and want to add more, you could start slowly increasing training load with doubles on your easy days and build up the sub-threshold sessions. That said, 40 minutes might be the upper limit for sub-threshold before you hit diminishing returns. At that point, doing double threshold might make more sense. I'm not convinced the singles method works correctly for high mileage. You might be able to get away with 50 mins of sub threshold but I don't think most of us can hold that consistently (the main goal of this is consistency anyways, right?). To really stay in line with the idea of maximizing load while keeping recovery in check, you’ll probably need to start doubling like Jakob.
Just my 2c from this thread, I'll let king poc and others correct me!
When I was a bit short on time one day, I scaled the sub threshold workout back to 5 min warmup, then 4 x 6 on 2 off, but keeping the 2 off at more of a steady state type pace than easy. Felt like a solid 37.5 minute workout.
I am finding I don't really feel trashed doing 3 sub threshold workouts a week. I know that when I have followed traditional marathon training plans my legs feel constantly sore. Legs feel great so far.
Last few weeks I did a park run both Saturdays and 2 sub threshold workouts, might do a few more weeks of park run, then go back to the sub threshold Saturday workouts. As I have a trail racing series coming up before a marathon start of November, and just wanted some slighter faster paced work before the trail series.
SIRPOC IS A BEAST. But… and y’all are going to HATE this… what if the method isnt that great for everybody?
Think about the two leaders of the Norwegian Hobbyjogger approach - Sirpoc who was a monster cyclist and is clearly an aerobic/slowtwitch powerhouse, and Kristoffer Ingebrigtsen who obviously has insane running genetics and comes from a family of people who have been successful with a similar style of training.
im just saying they are not exactly your typical hobby joggers, it’s two people that are pre-selected to be aerobic freaks.
I’m wondering if only doing sub-t intervals really is the ideal hobbyjogger schedule for most people. Intensity control and gradual progression isn’t specific to the sirpoc method.
I've thought this myself. But ended up using this method for my latest 10k and it was a huge PB. I agree and I think sirpoc has even said it, that it won't work for everyone?
But there is so much information here, Strava , Reddit with people diving in the deep end with this and having success beyond their expectations that i have swung round to believe it you are in a position to pick some sort of structured training and you have maybe between 5 and 8 hours a week, then i would put my house on the fact if you stick very close to the most optimal way to do this , Easy *3, sub threshold*3 and one long, you will have given yourself the best chance to improve over 6+ months.
I think the long term commitment is also the other factor. After 6 weeks I was disappointed. Suddenly after 3 months I was impressed. 12+ months in I am wowed.
His mantra is really control and gradual increase of load, consistency and discipline. But here is the thing. This is the thing as runners are all terrible at, right? The only magic here is it's all packaged in to a relatively understandable way. That isn't a criticism, it's actually the genius of it. Unless you deliberately go out of your way to stray outside of it, you will improve. Out of the amount of testimonials I've seen, I think that's why the people getting closest to the best bang for their buck are the ones who stick to it as rigid as they can.
It's hard to explain until you have probably done this versus something like Daniel's or Piftz, just how much easier it feels long term. I don't know why, or how. Even 80/20. It feels easier than that. Mainly because the easy running is a lot easier and I've tried them all.
You should introduce doubles on easy days (2x 40min). The next big leap is double sbu-threshold days,but it would be optimal to do in 4-6hour window. That could be problematic with daily chores.
Be cautios with first double threshold day,first session must be almost sub-sub threshold.About marathon effort. I would not do 1000m or 400s (1min) in the fisrt session,difficult to dial in without LT strips. 6min or 10min session re the way to go.
The second session is a bit hotter pace,closer to LT2.
For a few months weekly one double threshold day is enough.Closely monitoring the fatigue levels. Then slowly proceeding to two double threshold /week.
The third workout day is either one easier threshold 20min work or X-session. (hills or 200m fast for track athletes) Those aiming Ironman etc. do threshold on third workout day.
SIRPOC IS A BEAST. But… and y’all are going to HATE this… what if the method isnt that great for everybody?
Think about the two leaders of the Norwegian Hobbyjogger approach - Sirpoc who was a monster cyclist and is clearly an aerobic/slowtwitch powerhouse, and Kristoffer Ingebrigtsen who obviously has insane running genetics and comes from a family of people who have been successful with a similar style of training.
im just saying they are not exactly your typical hobby joggers, it’s two people that are pre-selected to be aerobic freaks.
I’m wondering if only doing sub-t intervals really is the ideal hobbyjogger schedule for most people. Intensity control and gradual progression isn’t specific to the sirpoc method.
I've thought this myself. But ended up using this method for my latest 10k and it was a huge PB. I agree and I think sirpoc has even said it, that it won't work for everyone?
But there is so much information here, Strava , Reddit with people diving in the deep end with this and having success beyond their expectations that i have swung round to believe it you are in a position to pick some sort of structured training and you have maybe between 5 and 8 hours a week, then i would put my house on the fact if you stick very close to the most optimal way to do this , Easy *3, sub threshold*3 and one long, you will have given yourself the best chance to improve over 6+ months.
I think the long term commitment is also the other factor. After 6 weeks I was disappointed. Suddenly after 3 months I was impressed. 12+ months in I am wowed.
His mantra is really control and gradual increase of load, consistency and discipline. But here is the thing. This is the thing as runners are all terrible at, right? The only magic here is it's all packaged in to a relatively understandable way. That isn't a criticism, it's actually the genius of it. Unless you deliberately go out of your way to stray outside of it, you will improve. Out of the amount of testimonials I've seen, I think that's why the people getting closest to the best bang for their buck are the ones who stick to it as rigid as they can.
It's hard to explain until you have probably done this versus something like Daniel's or Piftz, just how much easier it feels long term. I don't know why, or how. Even 80/20. It feels easier than that. Mainly because the easy running is a lot easier and I've tried them all.
Nice posts here. The difference between Kristopher and Sirpoc over the last year is a fable in itself. Kristopher is getting cute with it (weights, X factor sessions, etc) and he gets injured, meanwhile Sirpoc just keeps grinding away. Kristopher's HM PR is 1.12.11-- SIR MF POC SPLIT FASTER THAN THAT IN ROUTE TO 2:24. They aren't in the same league. In real time it seems like nothing is changing and that the progress is so slow, but not getting injured will put you in different stratosphere of fitness compared to others if given enough time and consistency.
When I started the Sub t routine about a year ago I was underwhelmed with the progress I was making. I was running more, not getting injured fortunately, but my 5k just wasn't getting faster. A few weeks ago I had a break through 10k performance and I now realize that I'm in a whole new domain of fitness. It takes a while for some. I'm probably not as talented as many (don't absorb and adapt to training as well) BUT I didn't get injured and now I'm in the shape of my life. In contrast, I have friends that are in a never ending injury cycle and think that it's normal. It's not normal, your training is f'ed. Before the sub T routine, I was foam rolling, dynamic stretching and strength training for "injury prevention." I've now dropped all of that. The most important things for not getting injured are intensity control and good shoes IMO, both of those things I got from Sirpoc.
Comparing Sirpocs training vs other marathon programs is interesting. It doesn't look like much on paper, no real monster sessions apart from the 5x 5k compared to Daniels or Canova, but dang, when you dig into it's a large body of work. Marathon training culture is like "if you are not dying, doing monster session, almost getting injured, barely making it, you're leaving gains on the table." Maybe we need to take a step back and ask if we're truly benefiting more than we're risking with this approach. You can't outrun your body of work so why cram fitness with sessions you're not ready for and risk injury?
One thing to consider when adapting this is that Sirpoc is a slow twitch guy through and through. That means his LT1 corresponds very tightly to his LT2 naturally. Others may have a different profile, race well from 5k-HM, but their LT1 is still underdeveloped in comparison to LT2, which would bite them in the latter stages of a marathon. I could be wrong and this could be unnecessary, but personally I would feel more comfortable racing the marathon with more work around LT1 (90-95%MP) than Sirpoc did. That could look like replacing the 1k reps with 60min at LT1 in the special block, which should generate about the same load but work on a new area to ensure LT1 is ready to go for the full 26.2. And truly I'd probably be fine without it and would do great copying Sirpoc 1:1, I'm just looking for areas to customize for my weaknesses as it's clear that I'm not Sirpoc lol
Nice posts here. The difference between Kristopher and Sirpoc over the last year is a fable in itself. Kristopher is getting cute with it (weights, X factor sessions, etc) and he gets injured, meanwhile Sirpoc just keeps grinding away. Kristopher's HM PR is 1.12.11-- SIR MF POC SPLIT FASTER THAN THAT IN ROUTE TO 2:24. They aren't in the same league. In real time it seems like nothing is changing and that the progress is so slow, but not getting injured will put you in different stratosphere of fitness compared to others if given enough time and consistency.
When I started the Sub t routine about a year ago I was underwhelmed with the progress I was making. I was running more, not getting injured fortunately, but my 5k just wasn't getting faster. A few weeks ago I had a break through 10k performance and I now realize that I'm in a whole new domain of fitness. It takes a while for some. I'm probably not as talented as many (don't absorb and adapt to training as well) BUT I didn't get injured and now I'm in the shape of my life. In contrast, I have friends that are in a never ending injury cycle and think that it's normal. It's not normal, your training is f'ed. Before the sub T routine, I was foam rolling, dynamic stretching and strength training for "injury prevention." I've now dropped all of that. The most important things for not getting injured are intensity control and good shoes IMO, both of those things I got from Sirpoc.
Comparing Sirpocs training vs other marathon programs is interesting. It doesn't look like much on paper, no real monster sessions apart from the 5x 5k compared to Daniels or Canova, but dang, when you dig into it's a large body of work. Marathon training culture is like "if you are not dying, doing monster session, almost getting injured, barely making it, you're leaving gains on the table." Maybe we need to take a step back and ask if we're truly benefiting more than we're risking with this approach. You can't outrun your body of work so why cram fitness with sessions you're not ready for and risk injury?
One thing to consider when adapting this is that Sirpoc is a slow twitch guy through and through. That means his LT1 corresponds very tightly to his LT2 naturally. Others may have a different profile, race well from 5k-HM, but their LT1 is still underdeveloped in comparison to LT2, which would bite them in the latter stages of a marathon. I could be wrong and this could be unnecessary, but personally I would feel more comfortable racing the marathon with more work around LT1 (90-95%MP) than Sirpoc did. That could look like replacing the 1k reps with 60min at LT1 in the special block, which should generate about the same load but work on a new area to ensure LT1 is ready to go for the full 26.2. And truly I'd probably be fine without it and would do great copying Sirpoc 1:1, I'm just looking for areas to customize for my weaknesses as it's clear that I'm not Sirpoc lol
This is great post. Enjoyed the thought this is great post. Enjoyed the thought that went into it. There's obviously top contributors to this thread like Hard2find (where is he?!) , shirtboy, jiggy (haven't seen post in a while?) , but I have enjoyed your posts chillruns as you have dropped in and outhat went into it. There's obviously top contributors to this thread like Hard2find (where is he?!) , shirtboy, jiggy (haven't seen post in a while?) , but I have enjoyed your posts chillruns as you have dropped in and out. I am a mere mortal like yourself so it's a good to read your thoughts.
That sucks for you man. To be honest, in January when it was clear sirpoc was doing the marathon I went all in on this method. I ran Manchester and ran 2:52 which is my first ever sub 3 in 12 attempts and only 10 finishes.
Never met the guy and don't know him, but read this thread to death and I figured two things. He's smart and I thought it he's running it, he pretty much knows this will work, as he isn't gonna put himself out there like that. The key for me was the long run and the time just getting used to being on ones feet that long, but still being able to do 3 workouts a week. I've tried Piftz a few times and Canova based ones scaled down, with a lot of 85% and then working up paced MP runs but I felt pretty cooked on that on hobby mileage.
If anyone is interested , all I did was basically train 2+ days behind sirpoc. I haven't spoken to him or anything. I just watched his Strava like a weirdo and scaled the distances to the time I had available. His 5x5k I had guessed was a touch faster than goal pace and I just made it into 5x15 mins for myself and so on. I think you get the idea.
Never felt so strong . It was a different experience for me yesterday. I had been training the normal sirpoc method for reference since last July, but this is my first marathon in that time. Personally I think you need a good few months probably of the original system, then that next phase and bringing in the new sub threshold distances slowly and then finally the special block, or whatever we call it? The special block for me was a huge confidence booster and the only time I really felt it was getting hard. The taper being just a week out came about the perfect time.
I didn't do anything really but easy in the final week. I think whatever method anyone uses we can all agree that's just preference and probably has zero impact on your race.
I had him down for sub 2:25. Even lexel of all people if you look at predictions pages back knew he was at least sub 2:25. I just didn't see a scenario where he would even start if it was not sub 2:30.
After about 5k yesterday I knew I was going to run sub 3 . Can't explain it just absolutely knew. Was glad to read on here today when he dust settled he absolutely crushed it. One of the many people sirpoc who owe you a beer! Cheers!
As much of a legend sirpoc is, I know I'll never break 2:40 let alone thinking about 2:24! But posts like this make me realise that once you get past his flabbergasting success, this is genuinely probably the best method for me trying to break 3. I've tried just about everything else, closest I've got is 3:02. I've no doubt this thread will still be going to I will report back in a year!
I think it provides a rigid framework for the stuff runners suck at. Not running hero workouts and the just "run bro" mentality. It's tapped into more of that cycling mentality of controlling all the variables and the small details. Apparently they matter. A lot.
If sirpoc is a natural "aerobic beast" (and I'm not really convinced being a good cyclist makes you a good runner or visa versa) then wouldn't the assumption be that he would need to touch on more traditional V02/race pace adjacent training? Clearly the guy is talented but I am not sure I understand the argument of he's well developed aerobically so of course this system works for him. if anything, I would think the opposite, this is a system for the aerobically underdeveloped
I think it provides a rigid framework for the stuff runners suck at. Not running hero workouts and the just "run bro" mentality. It's tapped into more of that cycling mentality of controlling all the variables and the small details. Apparently they matter. A lot.
And even though some people don’t respond as much or may take a while to respond, like the guy who just posted above, that remark about details is a point that’s probably corroborated by the experience of some others.
From what some people have reported and a little bit that I’ve seen, the people who struggle to see significant improvement with this method are the ones who think they can either consistently alter something a bit (“well, my easy runs feel so much easier than they have before, so it’s no big deal that I’m not keeping them as easy as sirpoc does”) or have overall departures from the plan here and there. Of course, the exception to that would be the ones who make any alterations to the plan more or less as systematically and with as much forethought as sirpoc does, but they truly are the exception to the rule and tend to be the sort who know physiology and training and who have a very analytical mindset.
That is, the ones who respond little are the ones who lapse a little back into the old “things runners suck at” habits.
Perhaps this has been addressed before (I’ll admit I haven’t read every single post in this enormous thread), but does anyone have thoughts/suggestions on how to apply this marathon approach to slightly higher mileage. I’ve been running at least 80, but usually 90+ mpw (with many 100s during marathon blocks) for years without too much injury issue (11-13 hours for me). I can’t imagine scaling back to 7-9 hours would benefit me, but I’d be interested to hear thoughts from those here. Maybe somewhere in the middle volume wise?
I'm in exactly the same position as you. My takeaway on what sirpoc has shown is that the type and/or amount of improvement caused by training at an intensity corresponding to moderately elevated lactate levels is so much greater than for other training intensities that, for someone who is not already training the sirpoc way, there will be a volume of training that is smaller than what you're currently doing that would yield the same or better results if that smaller volume of training has an intensity distribution along the lines of what sirpoc did.
Personally, my plan is to do a few months of exactly what sirpoc has been doing and see if I get better or worse, then adjust from there.
Perhaps this has been addressed before (I’ll admit I haven’t read every single post in this enormous thread), but does anyone have thoughts/suggestions on how to apply this marathon approach to slightly higher mileage. I’ve been running at least 80, but usually 90+ mpw (with many 100s during marathon blocks) for years without too much injury issue (11-13 hours for me). I can’t imagine scaling back to 7-9 hours would benefit me, but I’d be interested to hear thoughts from those here. Maybe somewhere in the middle volume wise?
I'm in exactly the same position as you. My takeaway on what sirpoc has shown is that the type and/or amount of improvement caused by training at an intensity corresponding to moderately elevated lactate levels is so much greater than for other training intensities that, for someone who is not already training the sirpoc way, there will be a volume of training that is smaller than what you're currently doing that would yield the same or better results if that smaller volume of training has an intensity distribution along the lines of what sirpoc did.
Personally, my plan is to do a few months of exactly what sirpoc has been doing and see if I get better or worse, then adjust from there.
To be more clear, that is only my takeaway in terms of what this shows about training volume. Some of my other takeaways are
-a moderate, consistent total training load is more effective than a training load that builds up each week during a training block, culminating in multiple very hard weeks that likely leave you overtired for the race (it was interesting to see in that recent Marius Bakken article that he mentions finding the same thing, i.e. what he calls "structurally flat" weeks)
-the most efficient use of easy run time is to make the run very easy
-whatever specific physiology this approach is training, it is something that is trained in a timeframe of months rather than weeks
Thanks to all the posters in the last couple of days. Truly fascinating discussion and even though I consider myself really a traditional guy when it comes to training, someone running 2:24 off pretty low mileage in comparison to others really has made me rethink. The way I see it is every run in the week has a purpose to scrape every last fiber on the table? I'm not one for usually jumping in on sudden training fads but I don't think it's outrageous to suggest this could be a real change in what the focus should be for hobby jogging and possibly even up to sub elite guys with jobs.
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