Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

LOL

No way did anyone run 2:24 on a hot London with training like that, We don't have the full picture. You think he's running faster than smart and talented guys like bester and felton on about 60-65% of the mileage at times? In masters 40+? What is he doing that he's not telling us, is the question?

He's more talented than those youtubers is the answer. Plus recovery is underrated.

Haven't commited seppuku yet?

Yeah this is not the full picture. You need to follow his super secret Strava where he posts all his VO2 work, strides and long runs with 20+ miles of quality. His Strava that everyone follows is actually a Strava jockey and he has someone else run all those workouts.

Yeah, well straight up should have his own black screen on this site

”Veteran British Male, hounded by Trolls, runs 2:24 on ‘garbage’ training. YT Influencers go home devastated”

Damnnnn, just seen the results. I actually thought he would go well but to send Bester and Felton home crying is hilarious. 55th in mass start and 6th overall Vet. Yikes. It's wild compared to where this thread started. One of lowest mileage in the top 75? Can't be many. Peak weeks aren't even big and just this mini special sirpoc special block? Really shows , just do the training that gives you best bang for buck. Don't be cute. You can know what makes good training without being a physiologist. You can also be a YouTuber and know nothing about training , apparently.

No one ever accused LRC threads of lacking self pitying nonsense

Below are a few themes from Sirpoc's marathon build.

1. Long run- between 90m to 2hr 22 minutes in length. Only one 2hr22m. Before these weeks he was doing 1hr40, up to 1hr50 long runs with the regular 3subt schedule. His build begins weeks before what's included here.

2. Sub T- continues with the regular sessions 3x per week. Mini tapers with less volume at sub T before races.

3. 3-5 x 5k at marathon pace- Sirpocs slowest 5k was 17:22 during London (mind explodes). All of these workouts were done at or slightly faster than marathon pace. 3x 5k was most common and he only did the 4 and 5 x 5k once each. The week of the marathon he did a 5k at sub T in lieu of subT intervals; I presume these were also done at marathon pace

4. Races- 5k 8 weeks out, 10k 5 weeks out, HM 3 weeks out before the marathon. That's a lot of racing! I believe he pr'd in every distance, which in itself is telling.

5. Volume and tapering- If it wasn't a race week, the volume (time per week) would be pushed to a new height. If you take the race weeks out, his volume progression is 7hr 50, 8hr, 8hr 6, 8hr 24, 8hr 21, 8hr 25, 8hr 51. Consider that Sirpoc hit his highest volume (8hr 51m) immediately after just PRing in the Half Marathon. Adding intensity through racing while also increasing weekly time is my opinion is the cornerstones of the build. From first principles, the two essential variables to increasing load are 1) intensity(races) and 2) volume (time per week, and time at intensity).

Well done Sirpoc, what a race! It truly takes skill to be able to execute a marathon like this on your first try. I think it's clear that Sirpoc has great skill for racing, which he honed during his cycling time trialing years (also, you can suffer a bit deeper on the bike than on the run, which is good practice). I think the longer the race, the more variables are at play and the more a skill for racing can save you time. It's absolutely incredible how tightly his PRs correlate from 5k to marathon, which indicates the benefits of aerobic strength and racing skill.

It's all well earned, congrats!

‘talented guys’ who ran like dickheads in those conditions

2 things

Are people really surprised Sirpoc ran a great marathon? He’s a short twitch aerobic monster, naturally talented, and he’s only been focusing on aerobic and subthreshold training. Marathon should be his best event. I’d be more curious if he ran something below a 1600/1500 meter that isn’t as much aerobic.

Why the hate for YouTubers? I don’t really watch any other than Yowana for show reviews and because he’s occasionally hilarious but I’d never wish he’d fail or laugh if he failed in a marathon. Is it a jealousy thing? If you don’t like them then don’t give them clicks.

*slow twitch

not short twitch lol

The most obvious answer is that he's simply the smarter and more talented one.

He's been steadily building fitness 3 times a week for hundreds of weeks.

IMO there's a misconception about marathon training that it has to involve deep fatigue. As though you can't train just to get fitter because that won't prepare you for some special aspect of running a marathon. So you have to disrupt optimal fitness improvement in order to experience deep fatigue with huge workouts and then continue to train while fatigued because you're going to have to run while fatigued at the end of the marathon in a manner that isn't like a 5k. It's all BS imo. You'd be better off using your training time to build as much fitness as you can and then simply run a smart race.

If you aren't burnt out headed into race day (and you run a smart race), when it comes time to do the last 10k with fatigue that you never experienced in training, you'll be ready to overcome it. It'll actually be fun. Like in a workout (I'm sure we've all done this at some point) when you feel great and you decide to race the rest of the workout at max effort - it's hard but it's exhilarating. You're thrilled by your performance. And somehow you mentally feel good even though physically it's very fatiguing.

These influencers doing such hard training and high mileage, racing HM/M so often, they might arguably be surviving. They might slowly be improving over the years. It doesn't mean their body is benefitting from all the training. Before they get all the adaptations from one effort, they put in another hard effort.

Their training log just shows what stimulus they put in. Recovering from the stimulus, adapting to it, is where fitness is gained. If you assume they're getting the max benefit from all that stimulus (fully recovering and adapting), then yes you'd expect a massive gap between their performance and sirpoc's. But they're not. They're not overtraining hard enough to have overtraining syndrome, but they are overtraining enough that many potential adaptations / fitness gains are going poof. So their training log is deceptive.

Talent matters for a lot. But having the right training load explains a lot too. People get trapped in a cycle of thinking that they're not improving because they're not training hard enough so they vow to increase mileage, they force the paces in their workouts, etc, and now they're even more overtrained. Eventually they've increased their training load to the max they can survive and then they plateau the rest of their careers - can't increase the training load anymore but don't have the wisdom to reset and try a new approach.

You don’t say.

Felton was crazy to me. Where he got 2:18 from only he knows. Only ever going one way. Congrats to sirpoc by the way, you'd be hard pushed to find anyone not a deliberate troll to say he doesn't deserve it for all he's put in and out in for others.

1. Kudos to sirpoc!

2. This is what goal focused training looks like. He was all in for a marathon and got some nice results in shorter distances. Most runners try to train for the 5K or HM and assume that long runs make them “marathon fit”.

3. It’s time for many of us to rethink what proper and sustainable training for mortals looks like. I would argue that this is the way. Trying to run confidence boosting and Strava impressive VO2 sessions and continuous tempo runs leads most to injury, chronic fatigue, and a failure to improve the energy systems needed to properly race a marathon.

Good post. The thread has basically gone to the next level now and to finally be like an ATG. I put myself into the category of a sirpoc fan and actually have trained like this for my latest 10k PB. It works for the shorter stuff, no doubt.

But I would put myself in the category of being too scared to try this method for a marathon. I really didn't think it would work. In fact I was a little scared going into today as I wanted him to do well. This just carefully scaling the load higher and then basically a short, sirpoc special block I thought would leave him in a deep hole probably after halfway, way before the normal walk. Basically an even race when you consider the first part is downhill and it was a tiny headwind home so how wrong was I.

The question on this thread has always been , but what about the marathon? Well, apparently we know and if there was only one person to trust to carry it out, I guess it had to be the man himself. If you have only one run a day you can fit in and you aren't doing this , you losing out.

Also, does he ever have a bad race? Do you ever see a performance and think wow that was below par? Why can't we pace like this? Lol