Olympic Marathon Silver Medalist Eunice Kirwa Busted for EPO Doping

I'm completely uninterested in race-walking. Perhaps Russia primarily doped middle distance women, and male race-walkers, because they learned quickly by experience that everything else was less bang for buck. I don't doubt women in middle distances can win medals with steroid cocktails. If you want me to look at Olympics and WC medals and major marathon titles, I'm prepared to read the results of your research, as a percentage of global medals available.

I compared Russia to Japan. Russia doped 1000 athletes. And I only counted 12 women and 0 men "fast performers" in 11 different distance running events. If you are suggesting Russia doped a lot, far more than Kenya and Morocco and Spain and USA and Japan, and still failed because other countries also doped, you have more homework to do to make that case, because Russia doped a lot, while Japan is not particularly known for doping. And 0 men. It's as if in running Russia did not BELIEVE in doping the men. Or alternatively, the did BELIEVE. Either way, the lack of results seems significant. I don't doubt steroids and testosterone for women in 800m. I think it is clearly demonstrated by Russia where doping is most effective: female middle distance, and male race-walking. I will not let you say 2 seconds for males in 800m based on women's response to male hormones. You need to base any estimate on male performances. If you want to argue effect in distance events, I am unmoved by anecdotes about meldonium in tennis. And for the longer distances, I reject your characterization that "the question is not whether they work but by how much". I think the question of whether any drugs are effective for distance runners at their very top is still unsettled. Our conversations only confirm it, as you seem to always fall back to sprinting, baseball, tennis, and other sports, as if you would be unable to provide content otherwise. If you want to make any progress with me: Stop talking about use or prevalence -- I conceded use and practice and prevalence is HIGH. Stop talking about women in middle distance on steroids -- I conceded that this is truly an effective example of doping working. Stop talking about other sports -- they have different physiological demands and limiters. Start talking about distance running performances.

Human physiology doesn't change depending on the sport. Drugs do not target specific sports or activities but human physiology. What enhances or aids physiology in one sport will aid it in another. That is why WADA and anti-doping bodies do not link specific drugs to specific sports; used in any sport the banned drugs will aid or have at least the potential to aid performance. Yet the logic of your argument is that distance running is somehow uniquely different and not susceptible to physiological enhancement in the way other sports are, and it therefore follows that currently banned substances should not apply to distance runners unless they can be unequivocally and demonstrably shown to give advantage. I wonder why WADA or even the Kenyan anti-doping authorities don't take that approach?

It is quite simple. Anything that aids stamina or increases aerobic capacity will also aid distance runners. They know that - which is why so many dope and are being popped for doping. Academic studies are largely of only academic value, and I leave you, casual observer and Aragon to your interminable debate of the studies and how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Of course, it suits your impossibly high standard of proof (or scepticism) that in a clandestine practice very few athletes - zero? - consent to be research subjects to settle once and for all the advantages or otherwise of EPOs in marathon running, since they, to a man - or woman , all protest how clean they are.

Anti-doping Inc. isn't a group of omniscient public servants who are incentivised to spend their limited resources to determine which disciplines and subgroups of athletes benefit from a given drug/method and which not when a given drug/method is banned (with a few exceptions).

The mechanism of blood doping is considered sound and research with recreational subjects and anecdotal evidence from elites and some performance trends supports this view.

Hence it is banned and where there is "potential" there is ban and the lists are uniform in most sports despite zero research backing even benedir with many disciplines. (I don't even go to WADA criterion three "against the spirit of sports" which would ban a drug if it is dangerous regardless of any performance boost).

The magnitude exactly how much blood doping actually helps elites is undetermined and it is very uncertain if the boost is even roughly similar across all type of endurance disciplines, because in cycling, the boost can have more to do with better overall mood due to lower heart rate during multi-week grand tours in addition to the Vo2Max (FTP) boost.

Renato you continue to look at epo from the wrong angle. In short it makes everyone fitter, including sprinters, jumpers and even throwers. Yet none of these need oxygen like a middle or long distance runner.

I would do that if it meant running faster. I've tasted mine before, it taste like raw egg yolks kinda. So I don't think it would be a problem getting it down. Anyways, not far from some cattle, might try to go get some to see if it improves my running.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Renato you continue to look at epo from the wrong angle. In short it makes everyone fitter, including sprinters, jumpers and even throwers. Yet none of these need oxygen like a middle or long distance runner.

+1

I clearly explained that EPO works better with athletes of short ditances. Why ?

You hace reason that EPO " In short it makes everyone fitter, including sprinters, jumpers and even throwers. Yet none of these need oxygen like a middle or long distance runner "

And this is exactly the point.

In every event, a better aerobic level can help athletes to do MORE specific training, this is a fact.

But is also a fact that, for example sprinters, DON'T TRAIN THEIR AEROBIC LEVEL, refusing to have some more long run, or some long test on track, to use as INCREASED BASE for their DIRECT TRAINING.

So, if you have some athlete knowing that the aerobic improvement can be effective for INCREASING THE LEVEL OF THEIR SPECIFIC TRAINING (for example, mainly in the anaerobic and lactic area), but NOT ACCEPTING TO TRAIN IN THAT DIRECTION (because really their mentality is in the opposite direction), for them a good solution can be take EPO for enhancing their threshold level, without any training in that direction.

This is possible because their aerobic level is very low. If you go to some sprinter, you can see that athletes able running 10" in 100m, reach the "conventional" level of LT (about 4 mml) already running 1 km in 4'. This means thair Aerobic System is very weak, and of course this fact conditioned, from their beginning, their mentality looking at the aerobic training.

But when we speak about long distance runners, we need to know the EFFECTS of tough and proper aerobic training (at the level of POWER of the aerobic system), something that in short distances or technical events doesn't have direct effects on the performance.

One very simple question : if I have a runner able running 10000m in 33', training 4 times per week, who decides to move to 10 sessions per week (because, for example, his personal situation with his job changed), and after 3 months of this new regimen becomes able running in 31', WHAT DID CHANGE IN HIS PHYSIOLOGY ?

Why is possible to increase performances, not linked with techincal improvements, in the endurance area, with training only ? What did change in the physiology of the athlete ?

Try to answer this simple question. And after, try tomultiplicate this effects for 50 times, when we look at a training with MORE volume, MORE intensity, MORE motivation, MORE method, and give me a LIMIT where a CLEAN athlete can go.

When we talk about EPO and human physiology, we are talking about increasing red blood cells. This is the physiological aspect. This only talks indirectly about performance, based on the belief and hope that performance was limited by too few RBCs, and not by some other physiological factor, like heat dissipation, or poor efficiency/economy. If your performance problem is weak hip stabilizers, increasing oxygen delivery to the muscles in the legs is not the solution. WADA does not decide the question of drugs actually working, just potential. The fact that it is banned cannot be construed as affirmative evidence that it works for all persons in all sports at all levels of fitness. Regarding "What enhances or aids physiology in one sport will aid it in another" -- you need to do more work to intellectually support such a sweeping notion. What helps cycling and race-walking and cross-country skiing, may or may not help running with different physiological limiting factors. While they have factors in common, it is the difference that makes them different. Also, what helps the top athlete when he is out of shape may or may not help him after an extended training session at altitude when he/she is peaked for performance. The logic of my "argument" is that predicted performance is not happening everywhere it should be predicted, according to your hypotheses and list of assumptions. Generally, this lack of confirmation of predictions should force you to rethink your assumptions and refine your model. You paint a picture of a broadly universal use, and a virtually guaranteed universal effect, regardless of drug and event, while I have repeatedly demonstrated that these predicted best performances are not universal, but tend to be quite restricted, e.g. many East Africans, a few North Africans, and many women in middle distance, men in race-walking, while top non-African male distance running performances are very rare (low quantity and relatively poor quality), despite representing 15x the population. Your quite simple model is too simple to be right. You think of performance as the sum of many factors, as a maximalization problem, when running is a system, integrating all the factors, and an optimization problem. Think of it like this: replace the engine of a car with a motor twice the size, that is now too big for the radiator, drive-train, suspension, and tires. The extra mass makes the car slower, as handling is degraded, or the hotter burning motor may cause engine failure due to overheating (or you drive slower to avoid over-heating), or you break the drive-train. With respect to distance running, athletes don't "know" your simple model, but believe in its potential, and some will try anything and everything to advance to the next level, applying a very low bar of "proof" of effect.

Generally speaking, Renato looks at training, and asks why we should look at EPO from any angle.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Renato you continue to look at epo from the wrong angle. In short it makes everyone fitter, including sprinters, jumpers and even throwers. Yet none of these need oxygen like a middle or long distance runner.

Renato Canova wrote:

One very simple question : if I have a runner able running 10000m in 33', training 4 times per week, who decides to move to 10 sessions per week (because, for example, his personal situation with his job changed), .

Watch out guys Renato knows who I am and where I live.

rekrunner wrote:

Generally speaking, Rekrunner looks at a doping thread, and asks why we should even be discussing EPO from any angle.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Renato you continue to look at epo from the wrong angle. In short it makes everyone fitter, including sprinters, jumpers and even throwers. Yet none of these need oxygen like a middle or long distance runner.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

One very simple question : if I have a runner able running 10000m in 33', training 4 times per week, who decides to move to 10 sessions per week (because, for example, his personal situation with his job changed), .

Watch out guys Renato knows who I am and where I live.

Creepy! He’s going to come to your house, break down your door, and spray paint “EPO doesn’t work!” all over your walls. ?

Reckie is hilarious. Now that Cleans, Clerk and Casual have given up, he is trolling Armstrong. Armstrong!

Alas, it's pointless. Scientists don't count, because they are not elite performance experts, the dopers, with their doctors and coaches and managers don't count, because they are either mid-distance, female, or walkers or, gasp!, bikers.

Now the half marathon stopped counting too, or was that an invalid case in point? Hard to keep up with reckies excuses. Lean back and enjoy!

rekrunner wrote:

Perhaps Russia primarily doped middle distance women, and male race-walkers, because they learned quickly by experience that everything else was less bang for buck.

Sure...try Liliya Shobukhova:

A 2:18:20 PB (tied for *7th* fastest all-time!) and winner of three Chicago marathons & one London in a span of about 6 years. The PB and marathon wins were all annulled due to hematological anomalies in her ABP including one astronomically high Off-score of 153! ? Not the outcome the Russians wanted with their souped-up marathon star!

The WADA Independent Commission Report #1

18.4.3 Athletes the IC investigation has revealed as suspicious (page 238):

Liliya Shobukhova

"The IAAF file on Liliya Shobukhova included details of each of the 5 samples taken

during the time period between 27 July 2010 until 08 October 2011 that constitute the athlete’s ABP, including the longitudinal profile. The IC notes that the file refers to

samples having been collected as of 09 October 2009 and that no samples were taken for the purposes of the ABP after 08 October 2011. The file also included the individual opinion of each member of the ABP expert panel. Two of the members of the ABP expert panel finalized their reports on 29 November 2011 and 07 December 2011. The third report does not include the date on which it was finalized. The ABP expert panel concluded that the athlete’s abnormal profile was likely the result of the use of a prohibited substance or method, specifically blood manipulation with “massive use of erythropoietin” associated with an autologous blood transfusion

strategy. One expert considered that two of the athlete’s hemoglobin values obtained in October 2009 and October 2011, in strict correlation with the Chicago Marathon, which Ms. Shobukhova won both years on 11 October 2009 and 09 October 2011, respectively, were so high that they should be considered a medical emergency."

In addition to Shobukhova, six (6) of Russia's top marathoners (title winners & WC medalists) all served bans for ABP hematological anomalies.

So, try again rekrunner. Lol.

rekrunner wrote:

If you want to make any progress with me:

Stop talking about use or prevalence -- I conceded use and practice and prevalence is HIGH.

Stop talking about women in middle distance on steroids -- I conceded that this is truly an effective example of doping working.

Stop talking about other sports -- they have different physiological demands and limiters.

Start talking about distance running performances.

You've been given an abundant number of examples in distance running. People who set world records.

People who won olympic medals. People who set european records. People who improved from fast recreational runners to Olympic qualifiers and record setters. People who set masters records. People who confessed and said that EPO helped them immensely. You dismiss all of them too.

Please give us a break with the idea that you are open to persuasion. This is why you are a doping apologist. You dismiss all evidence. Nobody should be under the illusion that they are able to "make progress" with you or that this is a worthwhile goal.

rekrunner wrote:

If you want me to look at Olympics and WC medals and major marathon titles, I'm prepared to read the results of your research, as a percentage of global medals available.

Here I'll give you a little understanding of Russia's primary objective to win Olympic & WC medals and not worry about running faster than your unreliable 90's cutoff times. Lol. One of the signature events for the Russian ladies is the 1500. Just for the Olympics starting with 92 Barcelona up through London (remember the Russians were banned for Rio).

Russia is tied with Romania (another former Soviet blocked nation) with four (4) Olympic medals (1 gold, 3 silver). Kenya & Ethiopia have just one each.

And Tatyana Tomashova (3:56.91) is their big star post-90s with 2 Olympic silvers & 2 WC golds. And she served a 2 yr ban for manipulating drug samples (no surprises there).

So, if you don't think doping has been the powerhouse for the Russian success in athletics then you're either clueless or just trolling .

+1

rekrunner wrote: If you want to make any progress with me: Stop talking about women in middle distance on steroids -- I conceded that this is truly an example of effective doping working.