Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

But why the medium long with 10k tempo in the middle with no rest breaks? Why the 24k with 8k progressive? I have to think he has a reason besides just "that's a classic marathon workout", given his entire approach has been to ditch classic running programs for what he believes to be optimal.

If there is one thing sirpoc isn't, it's naive or an idiot. I would imagine the latest runs are part of his own special period. Maybe to get a feel on relatively tired legs, of part of the job that needs doing? If you consider, he has done 3x marathon ish specific workouts in the last 6 days - 4 days previous to that he ran a HM. Even a man who has robotic qualities like him , must be done.

10-12 day taper is perfect in my opinion for someone who runs as regular like clockwork as him, so I can only pray that today we see an easy short run and the taper begins .

So sad that Sirpoopy won't even break sub 3:00. Hopefully he can make the 3:30 goal. But it isn't wrong on him to shoot for 4:00 🔥

Hello, Lexel!

Seems like Lexel has many usernames! 🤣

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Locked in.

Wanted to know this thread’s thoughts on integrating a sub threshold session in the long run rather than having them be separate days. Something like 3 up, 5mile at subT with 400m jog in between, 3 down. I’m thinking about applying this method to my future training and think that this might be easier for logistical reason. Sorry if this has been discused already. I don’t know how to search through threads.

Daniels has entered the chat.

Someone said marathon pace is perfect sub threshold training. But won't the gap between, say, 5k and marathon pace become very big if you improve? How can, for example, 2:45 marathon pace (6:20 pace) prepare you to run a sub 17 (5:25 pace)?

The concept is that for most people it is their aerobic capacity that is the limiter, not the ability to run at 5:25 pace. So if you improve your aerobic capacity the 5k time will also improve. You might be able to shave of some seconds peaking for a 5k, but that might be negative in the long run if you loose the consistency along the way

This is really common within NSA. It's what I do. Usually my LRs are 16-20mi total, with 10-15 easy and then a 3x10:00 60s rest @ HMP or 30m continuous at MP. I do that at the end. The next day is easy of course. Training load has been fine.

The gap should shrink as you become well-trained aerobically. By time you're trying to run 5k at 5:25 pace your "marathon" pace (aerobically marathon pace, not necessarily something you'd be able to run 26.2mi in) might be around 6:05-6:10. And despite how far that sounds from 5:25 pace with enough strength and endurance running 6:05 like its easy somehow 5:25 pace doesn't feel too hard at all.

M pace for 17:00 is 6:13

The thought experiment around M pace was higher volume/higher frequency if you could mostly take the loading elements out of the equation

Think of it like this. Your goal is to run 17 flat or just sneak under. You run 17:50. Nobody in the history of running failed like that, due to what they lacked being speedwork. Their limiter was their aerobic capacity is not yet up to scratch and should have worked on that, rather then killing themselves doing 12x400 or whatever things I see fellow 5k enthusiasts doing at my local track. That is a very basic example, but essentially the simplistic version of what is going on here.

It's much easier to push your ability up from below, until you run out of room to do so. Spoiler, I doubt most in this thread run enough to get to that point. The other as advantage is you are basically ready to just hop in a 5k-HM at literally any point.

If you are in this thread, you are a hobby jogger. We are in races that are just essentially glorified time trials. Everyone is for the most part doing their own thing. If you pace it correctly when training like this, the absolute last thing going through my head in the last 400m is me thinking in a 5k "oh wow I wish I had some of that top end speed right now".

Unless you are racing at a high level or really care about just 5ks, you are probably only giving up a handful of seconds at worst training like this. If you also consider the fact everyone is dying at the end of a race, this will probably counter that by keeping your strong and dying the least by the end.

There's a guy I race against sometimes. He has ridiculous raw speed naturally, or whatever you want to call it. He sat on me in a half once and I'm not joking, basically spirited off like he was usian bolt compared to me in the final stretch. Flip it my recent 10k I won. I am one of the slowest speed guys on the planet. But with not long to go, I pulled away from him with a tiny increase in pace. If he didn't know me, he would think he got out kicked by a monster. All that happened is he slowed down more and I sped up slightly - I was just aerobically stronger to maintain pace. That's basically all that is happening at the end of a race at this level, anyway.

A bit of a tangent, but I get questions like this a lot with people messaging me, scared, saying "BuT WhAt AbOuT SpEeD?!"

I'm a believer in the time-effectiveness and low-riskiness of the NSA approach, and I've enjoyed using it but I don't know if the logic here is totally right. People don't do faster track work or hills, or other non-Sub-T work just to improve their kick. You can get similar fitness gains from other types of workouts as compared to sub-T, it's just less fool-proof. Also, I think we all know people who have gone all in on marathon training and can no longer sniff their former 5k pace.

I'm actually firmly behind this. Very much a HJ here and part of the Strava community . I'm 44 and had a reasonably well known online coach/influencer who insisted I couldn't break 17 was because I lacked finishing speed. I was regularly running 17:20-30. So this sounds scarily familiar. I was frequently doing workouts where he drilled me into needing finishing speed and kick and this being the only way I could learn to run fast enough to break 17.

No coach now and 8 months of your method, dropped everything but almost a carbon copy on a time scaled level to what you are doing and ran 16:42 on what I would consider an average course. Pb on that course was 17:40. So I hope to get myself into a quick race and dip under 16:30. More than I could have dreamt of .

For what it's worth, sub threshold I think people have to remember is a state, not a pace. We aren't always running slow. It's likely somewhere just a hair slower than 10k pace up to between HM and M pace. So it's not outrageous to think you can suddenly hop in a 5k and be fine. I will note I feel slower, in the race. It's very, very odd but the 16:42 felt like there is no way it could have been quick. I think mainly, my engine is just bigger, it just feels more cruise control from start to finish. Just my thoughts anyway, this post really resonated with me 😊

I'd love to hear from sirpoc on this "marathon sharpening" phase of the last few weeks. I can fathom the normal NSA plan scaled to sub-elite level as reasonable, but to my eyes, the 10k and HM races, the 5x5k, 3x 8k LR, MLR w/ 10k are all pretty brutal efforts. I wonder what the CTL looks like compared to base training? Hard to assess just by looking at strava especially since there are all-out races, but seems to me like it's way, way higher. Impressive stuff.

This is exactly my same experience as a masters athlete. I’m running faster at all my race distances (800m - 10k). I feel totally in cruise control, expecting to feel like I used to in races totally red lining about to burst. Now I question if I’m pushing hard enough but cross the line with significant PRs. It’s a weird feeling. I don’t even modify it all for 800/mile on the track.