Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

According to a study by Pedro Velenzuela, Xabier Muriel etc. 5.5W/kg for 30 minutes would put Sirpoc somewhere between 25 and 50 percentile in a pro peloton. Obviously that wouldn't be nearly enough for a pure climber though. The title of the study is "The Record Power Profile of Male Professional Cyclists" if you want to Google it.

As to TT, you have heard it from the man himself: very low CdA. Probably pros caught up to amateurs on this one by now though I would imagine.

>>If youve seen sirpoc, you can probably produce more raw watts than him.

Not there yet but being inspired by Sirpoc and on 25 consecutive days streak now I am already seeing my highest power numbers. This method is great, I am never exhausted and actually looking forward to the Q days (I am doing 2-2.5hr of subthreshold a week as it's less straining on the bike). It gave me some hope I can still make some progress at my very recreational level.

Not sure why this is downvoted, this is from sirpoc himself, on strava and on reddit

Thanks to the person who organised all of the valuable info in this thread onto the website below:

I'd browsed the thread a few times, but always gave up after a few pages because the useful stuff just got crowded out by all the noise.

I guess I'm pretty late to this, but I've been doing Double Threshold regularly since July last year and had a huge breakthrough after just 9 weeks of doing it. I'm now 35 years old and I've been running consistently for 11 years (after stopping for 5 years from the ages of 19-24).

I stagnated at around mid-17s for 5k (even regressed back to 18 mins) at the age of 32, until I started using cross training as a way to do a modified version of Double threshold. I achieved good results with this at first, going from mid-17 down to 16:28 for 5k, and from 36:50 down to 34:47 for 10k. Half Marathon also came down from 1:27-high to 1:18. But then I seemed to plateau again, which prompted me to finally get the nerve to do actual Double Threshold (both as runs).

I read everything I could by Marius Bakken, listened to every podcast of elites who used the system and took on any piece of advice by coaches who programmed Double T, and then devised my own system using HR and the data I'd collected from my previous HMs, Marathons and all the threshold running I'd done up to that point. I reckoned that the top end of my LT1 HR was 154 (based on the steady state I was in during the first half of Marathons) and my LT2 was 163 (based on the same but during HMs).

And then I essentially just copied the Ingebrigtsen workouts but with the volume scaled down (started at 4 x 6 mins for the morning and 12 x 400m for the evening), the rest slightly adjusted (e.g 400s take Jakob 62-64 seconds, but they were taking me 80-84 seconds, so I did 40 seconds rest rather than 30 to line up with a 2:1 work to rest ratio) and used the HR figure as a barrier to stay below (rather than lactate). I also wasn't doing their "X-Factor" workout; just 2 double threshold workouts a week and every few weeks I'd do a cross country race (7-9k) in place of one of the Double T days. I saw immediate improvements once again, taking my 10k from 34:47 down to 33:19 after just 12 double threshold days (in 9 weeks) and my 3k from 9:28 down to 9:16.

I then got sick and picked up a nagging calf problem from that 3k race, and so I lost a bit of form. I was also trying to "peak" during track season, so I was trying to include a VO2 Max session each week rather than trying to accumulate more and more threshold running, which in hindsight, seems like a mistake. Anyway, I scrounged out some more improvement in the 5k, going from 16:28 down to 16:08 in January, but wasn't satisfied at missing sub-16.

I've since been running more Double Threshold, but have still felt the need for the odd VO2 Max workout (every few weeks). However, after reading Sirpoc's posts and other testimonials, I'm sold on the idea of ditching VO2 Max completely, and trying the Norwegian Singles Approach rather than Double Threshold as I've been doing. The reason being, it appears that I could achieve more time at an intensity closer to LT2 using this method. For instance, I'm usually getting around 15.5k of LT1 running and only 14ks of LT2 work in each week. I tend to do my LT1 workouts at around 3:50-4:00/km, whereas the slowest time I'm prescribed on the Norwegian Singles Calculator is for 3 x 3k at 3:34-3:44/km. It seems like I'd be getting in 24ks (at first, but with the prospect of building to more) of a higher quality, rather than 29.5ks of a mixture of LT1 and LT2. The way I do LT2 basically lines up with what you guys are defining as Sub-T also e.g a typical evening workout might be 7 x 1k at 3:30/km off 60" recovery.

Anyway, a very long post, but I'm wondering what others would recommend?

You could do monthly once a 25x 1min (R 30s) workout instead of 10x3min. For a bit of "speedwork".

Beside that a monthly time trial 3-5K for a bit of Vo2max work. (or any other shorter races without taper).
All the rest 10x3min, 5x6min and 3x 10min workout days layed out usual.

Sounds like a good idea.

There's a low-key XC series where I live, so I'll likely do the odd 6-8k race here and there throughout the winter.

The other question is, do you think 3 Sub-T workouts a week (totalling 24k in volume) will produce better results than 2 Double Threshold sessions a week (totalling 15.5k LT1 and 14k Sub-T)?

It depends on recovery. 3x Sub LT2 is more intense.

I would not do double LT only for money..aka professional work.

Monthly XC race is golden,it will give some Vo2max work.

If I'm building a base and I have a 5k from 6 months ago then to start this training I need to do a 5k test to have a current idea of my form?
And is it worth starting 3 workouts right away? e.g. for 40 miles? Share example workouts for my mileage

At 40 miles per week depending on your speed it's probably fitness enough to do 3 workouts right away but to be safe it's best to just do one the first week back to training after rest, then two the next week then three the third week.

If you've already been jogging for some time after your season ended (not just fully resting) then you can jump straight into 2 or 3 workouts.

Workout volume is best scaled to be about 10% of your total weekly mileage. So 40 miles per week would mean 4 miles of intervals. You would have to calculate that on your own, can't give any example workouts at all, since you didn't provide us with any paces. But anything like 8x3 minute if that works to around 4 miles for you, or 4x6 minute, or etc.

If you are fast enough you can run intervals on the track like 400m, 1k, 1600m, 2k, 3k, 3200m, but then you'd have to be doing close to 1min for 400s, 3min for ks, 6min for mile, 7min for 2k, and 11-12min for 3k for the times to work.

Jecht- I ran 57:58 for 10 miles. In some of your posts you seem to joke about me as a person. Is that time a joke for you? You have no possibility of ever coming even within 5 minutes of that time. Maybe you should focus on your own mediocrity before judging others.

By the way - I've never seen someone post so much about their training with such mediocre results. At least you are consistent about your mediocrity.

Hopefully this post doesn't embarrass "sirpoc" too much. I say that, mainly because he's a really down to earth and humble guy.

My story is I am mid 30s. An OK runner and have been running track and the road for around 8 years. I have been obsessed with a long term goal for a long time, of breaking 18! Hey, I know some of you guys will be like breaking 18 is chump change! But for me it seemed like a hurdle I could not overcome.

Anyway, the meat of the story is I get talking to this guy at my local track. I saw him often and he seemed to not really be killing himself during this track time and yet me and my buddies are out on the floor, spread across the track after 6*1k. 7*800. You get the idea. Then this guy is still going but clearly not all out. Also, on my "easy" runs I'm overtaking him if I see him out on his easy days. It didn't add up. I saw him at a race and asked him what this secret was as he was crushing me and others I knew all last summer and leading into this year.

He was quite helpful when we had ended up leaving around the same time after one session and I asked a few questions. He said about how he just does 3 sub threshold runs a week and that was it plus easy. I was skeptical but he insisted that was it. I googled it and found quite a lot of information but mostly just used a lot of what he told me. He offered to give me some basic plans and we exchanged details.

The guy kindly send me weekly plans off his own back, he had no need to. All he said is I will owe him a beer one day and that I would easily break 18 and was happy to help.

Anyway, let's get to the good part! Firstly, after around 9 months of this I broke 18 finally! And 17 ! I ran 16:54 this weekend just gone. For a while I kept the coach I was paying at the track but he told me this plan was crazy and I was going to fail. So we parted ways. My instincts told me this guy who offered to help would get me there. No idea why.

Now, the funny thing? The guy turned out to be sirpoc! I literally never put 2 and 2 together until last week and the 10k he ran. He never once told me he was basically THE guy, effectively the person who laid out the whole NSM you will find here, Strava, reddit. Or the sirpoc method. Or whatever this is. I just find that really sums the guy up.

Anyway, I would just like to thank him again and who knows, maybe this will help one other person have the confidence to sticking to the plan. The not running near race pace was the thing that spooked me the most. Especially as with my group of running friends I was the only one who really went with this.

My main takeaway is I feel fresher to put the work in. The sessions and easy paces my coach had me doing were really holding me back I think. So tired. 75-80% HR on "easy" runs was nuts looking back and that coupled with how hard workouts were, always felt drained and once a month he was having me have a down week to recover. Maybe more so after a key race. This is that boom and bust cycle we keep seeing people talk about I guess. Now I truly feel like I can run everyday and things are under control and I can build load.

My race at the weekend was strange. I knew I was going very well as my paces obviously were much higher in training. But I was turly taken back at how easy 3:28/km felt for the first K. As I hadn't ran anything near that, so I was nervous. But I finished strong with a 3:21 KM and that was it. My adult lifetime goal blitzed through. I hadn't run a 5k in 9 months, but I did run a low ish 35 10k the week before in the race sirpoc was i, so I knew this was possible if I held it together and paced it well. So wasn't a total shock, but to break 17 is almost a lifetime running achievement ticked off!

Anyway, sirpoc , next time you are at the track, there will be a full crate of beer waiting with your name on it! Good luck in London pal!

Great progress.

Really interested in your progression over the 9 months. How long into the 9 months did start to notice improvement? Did you do regular 5k TTs, and how did they progress, slowly or in leaps and bounds?

This is a great story - congrats on the excellent progress! Like Alfie I'm keen to hear how quickly (or slowly) it progressed for you.

When you finished the 16:54 did you feel like you had a little left in either your legs or lungs? Have heard of runners PRing in these distances (5k to 13.1) using sirpoc method--their legs are fine but their lungs just barely made it, or vice-versa, as a result of the LT1 being pushed up from the bottom w/the new method.

Saw some guys on reddit/r/advancedrunning do this method and crush their shorter races!

Also, did you still take a down week every 4 weeks (even if slight) and do sub-thresholds in that week, but slower-paced, for instance? i.e. 35, 38, 41, 32--then 39, 43, 46, 37, etc.

I'm slow, probably one of the bottom 33% of runners on LRC. I get that and am peace with that. You're not telling me anything new Greg...I'm sure you'd whip me at all distances. It's all good!

As you ask questions, it’s good to keep a key thing in mind if you follow this method: I would seek as much guidance as possible on identifying what to do and following that as closely as you can. If you look to apply it to a marathon, consider (a) directly following what was conveyed by that guy on Reddit who had success (do the standard sirpoc plan for around 9 months very consistently, then begin the kind of modifications they made for the marathon), or (b) doing something different ONLY if you’re able to find info on a host of others who had similar success have done something a little different.

Remember one of the more frequently stated points of caution: The people who seem to have little success with this method are the ones who don’t follow it super-carefully (whether by charting load in the spreadsheet, lactate testing, or whatever). A crucial component seems to be a daily commitment to consistent patience and self-discipline.

I'm not gonna lie, I was a bit worried I promised him he would improve and then didn't 😂 probably the slowest responder I've seen so far as from whar I remember, he didn't improve for like 10 weeks. Which is quite a long time. Then the paces and repeatable data like HR for paces started to come down and I moved him up through the gears. As far as I know, unless he didn't tell me, he didn't do any 5ks after the first 3 months. The last one was end of autumn last year. Then the big gap, just did the workouts and raced a 10 mile and HM trail race. Then the 10k I was in, then the 5k.

After that 10 weeks though he improved pretty consistently. I don't want to put the guy under pressure, but I would be surprised if he can't run sub 16 if he sticks to it.

All I'm hearing is that if I start training like this and I don't pr by 2 mins in the 5k guaranteed, I'm suing you ;)

Yeah, but you won’t be able to catch him.

Thank you for popping in! It sounds like most here respond well, assuming consistent 2-3x at the recommended paces and times discussed, at <10 weeks. (Not all but most).