This is true, if I remember correctly he however mentioned on the group that he is increasingly fatigued and doesn't think his current marathon training is sustainable past the final weeks till the marathon. So seems we're back to periodization of sorts.
Indeed. I'm definitely more feeling the strain that I have been, but it's definitely manageable. I knew quite quickly this increase in load would be doable, but I wasn't going to like it. Would I be able to sustain this for the next 2 years, like I have done? Probably not. Who knows, I may well make a mess of the marathon and then be forced to keep going.
But my training load has increased to it's highest point ever, so that's something. I've always suspected a basic marathon training plan is actually probably the best "traditional" way to train, in the sense you see a lot of guys collect PBs on the way to a marathon, simply because they are doing more.
I'm at the point now where anymore time spent training, would be smarter to spread into doubles, at least some of the week. That won't be me though, I'll probably just carry on until I fall apart finally and then disappear back into being a non runner 😅
Once you are past that 8.5-9 hour range doubles are best and then in my opinion nobody needs me, my ideas or my opinion on any of that. Bakken, Jakob and his crew etc . (And others) have pretty much solved probably the best way for guys to train, who have pro level hours available.
The one thing I still stand by, all this time on - is that this is still "probably" the best way I could have possibly trained, given time constraints of 5+ hours a week (originally) up to around 8.5 hours. The real secret is the structure and recovery aspects compared to other systems though, is why I have managed to make it up to 8+ hours regular a week and build such a big base. It broke the boom and bust cycle and is balanced enough, whilst tetering on the edge that you can just keep stacking those training bricks.
My point in bringing this up is more of a precaution because the majority of people in this group most likely don't have lactate meters and there may be other people who could be overdoing it without knowing since they don't own a meter.
I've been in the Strava group since its formative days (back when it was 200 or so people strong) and haven't really seen this discussed which is why I brought it up. Again, I think highly of this method, but the exact paces may need to be modified for some people because it is very easy to go over threshold without realizing it. The best correlate I've found is that if the workout does not feel completely doable and/or slightly hard then the lactate is probably over threshold.
I've long forgone the suggested paces, I just hit the paces that I know generate the lactate I am looking for, so not sure what exactly is crazy about this.
I would say if you think youre AT threshold youre probably going too hard to do this 3x a week indefinitely
The key is to be slightly under, where youre just not quite on the rivet and you can recover no problem
That type of sweetspot training for running takes a lot of discipline without a power meter but certainly generates the load to fatigue ratio youre looking for in the long term game
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
This is impressive! And very slightly problematic for the Norwegian singles approach, since it means he hit a PR for 10K after modifying the program for marathon training by pushing the long run distance well past 80 minutes and adding a longer interval session (3 x 5K). Nothing exotic, but the rule continues to be true that if you run more, you get faster.
I agree to an extent. But one thing I hope that hasn't got lost, is this is just a way to structure your training for best bang for buck. If you can run more, you will likely get faster if you subscribe to "more is more" (until it's not). I don't seem to have hit that point yet, where the increase in load returns diminished gains. Yet, I've seen people his diminished gains, at a certain training load, in a much quicker time. Hard2find is one, for instance.
Thanks for the additional thoughts, and I just wanted to add: Good luck in London! It would be awesome if the answer to all the questions about adapting this approach to marathon training turns out to be "Just extend the long run and add a 3 x 5K session to the rotation." That's very doable in most cases. A lot of people wanting to run a good marathon can probably scrounge up an extra 90 minutes each week for a while.
With this thread regularly appearing now on top 10 threads here and all over Reddit , I thought I would give it a read.
Can't help but think I've wasted time I won't get back. To everyone who has contributed, you owe me a day of my life back!
Following a guy who wants to run 5k but no 5k pace? No strides? C'mon guys. Is this some sort of joke? Not a troll, but this surely seems like another lazy version of EIM.
If you want to improve, there's a reason why Daniel's is a legend of the game or something like 18/55 will get the job done. Part of me thinks that the whole thing is a big troll job from the authors here and the joke is on us.
I really thought I was in for something that resonated with me given all the comments, but yet another puffed up version of lazy training that will generate obviously lazy and sub par results.
Maybe I'm a training snob, but I believe you get out what you put in and there's much better ways to train than this if you want to get towards being the best HJ'r you can be.
I was inconsistent in doing NSM since starting running a few months ago. I'd do sessions like 8x3 or 10x3, nothing faster than 7:45-7:55 pace at times. EZ running between 9:05-9:45 pace and 35-40 mpw (peak of 44). My LR was between 10-15 miles, with a bunch of 12-milers, two 14-milers and one 15-miler.
Today, I managed a 1:06:32 15k (7:10 pace) and felt I had a little left in the tank. Kick was strong too.
Now I have a baseline to go off of, with a VDOT of 47.4. This is a great tool:
I agree to an extent. But one thing I hope that hasn't got lost, is this is just a way to structure your training for best bang for buck. If you can run more, you will likely get faster if you subscribe to "more is more" (until it's not). I don't seem to have hit that point yet, where the increase in load returns diminished gains. Yet, I've seen people his diminished gains, at a certain training load, in a much quicker time. Hard2find is one, for instance.
Thanks for the additional thoughts, and I just wanted to add: Good luck in London! It would be awesome if the answer to all the questions about adapting this approach to marathon training turns out to be "Just extend the long run and add a 3 x 5K session to the rotation." That's very doable in most cases. A lot of people wanting to run a good marathon can probably scrounge up an extra 90 minutes each week for a while.
Would be interesting to know if the LR should still stay under 2:30-ish (per Hanson's). Luke H. always talked about any time after that being of diminishing returns for most runners. Hence, their 16-mile LR as the max (2:24 = 9:00/mi. pace, for instance). Faster runners can get to 18-22 in that same timeframe.
Is it just me, or does this all smell a bit off? Like continuing to just pb on this training? Supposedly 40+ years old? There's definitely stuff here we aren't being made aware of interest my opinion. 30:41 as a master just I don't believe the guy to be honest on the training schedule he says he does.
Secret speed sessions, brah. Once I got on the NSA method, Sirpoc sold me thousands of dollars worth of nipple cream. Told me I would need it because I would be so fast that my nipples would completely disintegrate. Rumor has it that he connects his Garmin to a remote control car and runs them on these courses to get the times he does to push his cream. Follow the money/nipple cream brah, you’re hot on the trail.
He's also collabing with Choi, SJD and Kofuzi too. ;)
With this thread regularly appearing now on top 10 threads here and all over Reddit , I thought I would give it a read.
Can't help but think I've wasted time I won't get back. To everyone who has contributed, you owe me a day of my life back!
Following a guy who wants to run 5k but no 5k pace? No strides? C'mon guys. Is this some sort of joke? Not a troll, but this surely seems like another lazy version of EIM.
If you want to improve, there's a reason why Daniel's is a legend of the game or something like 18/55 will get the job done. Part of me thinks that the whole thing is a big troll job from the authors here and the joke is on us.
I really thought I was in for something that resonated with me given all the comments, but yet another puffed up version of lazy training that will generate obviously lazy and sub par results.
Maybe I'm a training snob, but I believe you get out what you put in and there's much better ways to train than this if you want to get towards being the best HJ'r you can be.
I was inconsistent in doing NSM since starting running a few months ago. I'd do sessions like 8x3 or 10x3, nothing faster than 7:45-7:55 pace at times. EZ running between 9:05-9:45 pace and 35-40 mpw (peak of 44). My LR was between 10-15 miles, with a bunch of 12-milers, two 14-milers and one 15-miler.
Today, I managed a 1:06:32 15k (7:10 pace) and felt I had a little left in the tank. Kick was strong too.
Now I have a baseline to go off of, with a VDOT of 47.4. This is a great tool:
Dude, you’re picking up nicely from starting a few months ago! I’m trying to learn, too, so I can’t say I know much. But as I’ve been trying to build a base and get started, it looks like one thing is most important among the important things: be consistent.
I know not everyone can follow the plan in exactly the same way, but from what I’ve seen, the people who do the best are the ones who follow the most closely to what sirpoc does (minutes rather than miles, building into it), and the ones who have the most trouble are the ones who try to figure out more on their own and make a lot of adjustments.
but that still sets aside the problem of which people work more from the spreadsheet and paces, lactate, and heart rate. And for lactate, those who are really good at identifying the lactate curve for themselves. that last part is the one I’m trying to work on and learn about, before I get deep into training. So good luck to you.
I was inconsistent in doing NSM since starting running a few months ago. I'd do sessions like 8x3 or 10x3, nothing faster than 7:45-7:55 pace at times. EZ running between 9:05-9:45 pace and 35-40 mpw (peak of 44). My LR was between 10-15 miles, with a bunch of 12-milers, two 14-milers and one 15-miler.
Today, I managed a 1:06:32 15k (7:10 pace) and felt I had a little left in the tank. Kick was strong too.
Now I have a baseline to go off of, with a VDOT of 47.4. This is a great tool:
Dude, you’re picking up nicely from starting a few months ago! I’m trying to learn, too, so I can’t say I know much. But as I’ve been trying to build a base and get started, it looks like one thing is most important among the important things: be consistent.
I know not everyone can follow the plan in exactly the same way, but from what I’ve seen, the people who do the best are the ones who follow the most closely to what sirpoc does (minutes rather than miles, building into it), and the ones who have the most trouble are the ones who try to figure out more on their own and make a lot of adjustments.
but that still sets aside the problem of which people work more from the spreadsheet and paces, lactate, and heart rate. And for lactate, those who are really good at identifying the lactate curve for themselves. that last part is the one I’m trying to work on and learn about, before I get deep into training. So good luck to you.
Thank you! Going forward I'm just going to be doing it by MINUTES and not distance. I would over-reach if I did it by distance. I am also not thinking too much about HR on these because HR fluctuates day by day.
By using the calculator, I'll be able to develop consistent training off an ACCURATE race result (15k).
Time-based Intervals WorkoutStructureTarget PaceRecoveryShort Intervals 8-12 × 3-4min 7:09-7:25/mi 15K pace 60s rest Medium Intervals 4-6 × 6-8min 7:19-7:35/mi Half Marathon pace 60s rest Long Intervals 3 × 10-12min 7:29-7:45/mi 30K pace 60s rest
This week was completely loaded, I had to change the pipes in the whole apartment,move the furniture around, clean-up, which took a toll on me. The weather started to warm up, too, so I was expecting the HR to go a bit higher, but luckily, that wasn't bad. It also had a positive effect, as I've felt the muscles warmed up properly and I was a bit faster than usual.
In the beginning of the week I've picked up a cold, but that didn't last, and towards the end of the week the HR dropped back to normal, I'm no longer making serious efforts to keep it under 70% HRmax (138).
I'm feeling strong and rejuvenated after months of general exhaustion and running plateau.
The plan for next 2 weeks is to get to 20-22 x 60s/30s and 5 x 3:00/1:00 and then the road to longer reps (6:00/2:00) can start.
Rain and humidity did me dirty in 3rd week, especially on the shorter reps where I should have dialed back the pace a bit as I was slowly overheating. I haven't had issues with shorter reps on 4th week, HR dropped a bit at the same pace with more reps, confirming it was an environment factor.
As I've reached a milestone in previous week, 5 x 3:00/1:00, the training is going in 2 directions now, finally, one towards 5 x 6:00/2:00 @ 4:20-4:30/km and another one towards 10 x 3:00/1:00 @ 4:10-4:20/km.
After running 5 x 3:15/1:15, I've got the impression that the rest was too much, or maybe because the pace was a bit slower. The HR dropped a lot during the rest periods. I'll run longer reps soon and if rest still feels too long, I'll probably keep it
Overall impressions after 1 month:
- I was running too fast on easy days previously - I like the consistency of the program, even though others consider it repetitive/boring - After an initial drop, adjusting to new paces (especially on easy days, where I was running too quick), I'm sloooowly getting back to original paces, but at lower HR levels - My Garmin doesn't like me right now, my LTHR was 4:27 @ 174 HR, now it shows 4:33 @ 172 HR. I'm wondering why LTHR is dropping, considering my max is 197, I would expect it to be around 177-179 HR.
I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but worth repeating for those who might be genuinely clueless -the dude was a very good cyclist in his younger years, a level probably equivalent around 14:00 5k/29:00 10k performance.
He posted his bike power numbers some time ago. I think they were more in line with 30m 10k, not 29k. I think it was something like 315W at 57kg FTP which is 5.52W/kg. Power in running correlates pretty well with speed in m/s. 10k at 5.52W/kg is 30:11. You can run 10k a bit faster than FTP so maybe sub 30 but not by much.
Another way to think about it is this: 60kg runner burns around 600kcal during 10k run. In cycling 200W for an hour is 720kcal. Doing some math here you need 333W for 30 minutes to burn 600kcal which is 5.55W/kg (to run exactly 30m 10k).
He is closing in on being as good a runner today than he was a cyclist back then imo.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
Reason provided:
Added some more info
He posted his bike power numbers some time ago. I think they were more in line with 30m 10k, not 29k. I think it was something like 315W at 57kg FTP which is 5.52W/kg. Power in running correlates pretty well with speed in m/s. 10k at 5.52W/kg is 30:11. You can run 10k a bit faster than FTP so maybe sub 30 but not by much.
Another way to think about it is this: 60kg runner burns around 600kcal during 10k run. In cycling 200W for an hour is 720kcal. Doing some math here you need 333W for 30 minutes to burn 600kcal which is 5.55W/kg (to run exactly 30m 10k).
He is closing in on being as good a runner today than he was a cyclist back then imo.
I'm curious about where this sits on sub elite? As I've seen some of sirpoc TT results and he was finishing 1st regular and beating some neo pros. But 315w doesn't add up, not sure how this is possible? If correct? Another hobby cyclist and runner here so just curious.
Aerodynamics, he was well ahead of the curve on the CdA front. (NB he was a TTer, not road racer).
This is correct. My results way over performed my talent. At one point though I genuinely think there were very few people on the planet with a lower CdA than me after years of working out how to lower it, hence the pretty good results. So it's hard to compare like for like I guess.
He posted his bike power numbers some time ago. I think they were more in line with 30m 10k, not 29k. I think it was something like 315W at 57kg FTP which is 5.52W/kg. Power in running correlates pretty well with speed in m/s. 10k at 5.52W/kg is 30:11. You can run 10k a bit faster than FTP so maybe sub 30 but not by much.
Another way to think about it is this: 60kg runner burns around 600kcal during 10k run. In cycling 200W for an hour is 720kcal. Doing some math here you need 333W for 30 minutes to burn 600kcal which is 5.55W/kg (to run exactly 30m 10k).
He is closing in on being as good a runner today than he was a cyclist back then imo.
I'm curious about where this sits on sub elite? As I've seen some of sirpoc TT results and he was finishing 1st regular and beating some neo pros. But 315w doesn't add up, not sure how this is possible? If correct? Another hobby cyclist and runner here so just curious.
If youve seen sirpoc, you can probably produce more raw watts than him.
If youve had 10-100x pints, probably not. Then hes very likely got you where he wants you.
cda in a KFC drive thru means very little in the hunt for glory