Singletrack podcast has also downplayed Cam cheating. Something something about being a positive influence and no mention on the integrity of the sport. It’s like the podcasters want the sport to encourage walking pharmacy labs so they have more products to pedal in the name of health optimizing with 1000 dolllar of peptides, hormones, and other banned supplements.
This is very disappointing to hear. Finn himself was 5th in Cocodona 2025....the same year Cam Hanes finished 18th.
Another lie Cam made up in his latest podcast: He suggested I was going after him for a "life-time ban". That is not true also. Probably the biggest ban USADA can give him is maybe up to 4 years...but at this point probably less and very likely nothing will come out of all this (if i had to guess?). Could be 4 months for all I know?
Finally his biggest point is now that he "only started BPC-157 in November of 2024." However we don't know when (if he did?) end that? In his initial Instagram comment from last month it was: "I've taken supplements for years...mainly just to put on muscle...and now, just for health, like stem cell, BPC-157 etc....I don't now if they're legal..."
Kinda paints a different picture with the timing and when he was still using BPC-157 or for how long he took it (or not)?
In any case if he was racing Cocodona 250 in early May of 2025 after starting BPC-157 in November of 2024 (and Aravaipa's "anti-doping policy" was the same as it is written now)...that's a 5-6 month window of starting BPC-157 to racing this event that follows USADA rules? He was the top 50+ year old in the field at Cocodona that year. Sure, it probably wasn't nearly as good of a performance as his 2:39 in Eugene though.
It would help maybe if Aravaipa Running and the Eugene Marathons actually enforced their policies "following USADA rules"?
I might not have always agreed with your takes in the past but you ALWAYS have been respectful, and for that, that's a breath of fresh air.
I do think this will blow over, unfortunately, and nothing will be done. But keep doing your best in fighting the good fight, I mean that in the best way and without sarcasm.
You have access to networks and runners in the trail/ultra space that we don't have, keep leveraging those and never give up!
I am sorry if this post offends anyone, I am coming here in good faith and won't insult anyone on either side (Cam or Sage) or make any personal attacks on anyone.
Also since I took a slight dig at Sage, just want to echo what others have already said: thank you Sage for taking this on. You're taking a lot of heat for doing the right thing. I for one am grateful that you have the stomach for it. Easy for me to sit here behind a fake name, you're putting yourself on the line, so huge kudos.
Really. If this escalates enough he'll have the full force of the entire simpleton rogansphere fat-fingering his DM's sticking up for their father figure
I understand where Finn is coming from. Interview begins at 10:33 timestamp re: the CamSage issue and the issue ends at 19:30 before he talks about Precision Hydration or whatever.
At 12:44 she brings up a good point about not having the resources to test every runner, they barely have enough resources/items to test the elites, etc. That's a fair, valid point, and not being biased in either direction.
And at 13:54 they do at least acknowledge the issue and don't excuse what happened, while also trying to avoid tearing down Cam's character. I'm sure if I met Cam in a bar we'd talk hunting and guns (I like those sports as well). This issue has made me look at both side more fairly.
I'm also willing to listen to D&K and also Cam's podcast, as well as Jeff Garmire's pod (Free Outside). They also referenced this post:
She brings up fair points. Basically, will the juice be worth the squeeze?
So, if clean sport is worth defending, how should we enforce doping norms among the masses? Honestly, I am not sure we can. Doping control is expensive, and we already do a poor job of testing elites. Also, many people are prescribed banned drugs for therapeutic reasons. For example, a runner may be prescribed an inhaler for asthma or hormone replacement therapy to preserve bone health. It seems unrealistic to require that an amateur athlete submit a therapeutic use exemption to document their prescriptions for banned substances. This is a lot of paperwork, and it is unclear who would be responsible for reviewing it. So, where does this leave us? Should we just give up the idea of clean sport?
I think it is possible to support a norm (competing clean) without policing therapeutic and non-therapeutic drug use in non-elites. This should probably start with education about why doping is a problem — both for personal health and for the sport as a whole. Also, leaders in the running community could publicly advocate for clean sport.
Seeing the influencer crowd go wishy-washy / "both sides" on this is baffling to me.
If you are worried about the lack of resources available for testing, you should want *more* testing done for masters athletes (and to ensure that masters entry fees to USATF and similar races cover it). This will create more economies of scale for testing agencies and bring costs of testing down for everyone.
If you say you think that doping is already rampant at masters levels, you should want cheaters held accountable so that this stops. Nobody should feel that they have to dope to be competitive, and nobody who trains and competes clean should have their results be assumed to be dirty.
If you say it isn't important if someone cheats because there is no prize money involved, you should at least talk to some of the clean competitors who were beaten out by a cheater and see if they feel the same way.
I understand where Finn is coming from. Interview begins at 10:33 timestamp re: the CamSage issue and the issue ends at 19:30 before he talks about Precision Hydration or whatever.
At 12:44 she brings up a good point about not having the resources to test every runner, they barely have enough resources/items to test the elites, etc. That's a fair, valid point, and not being biased in either direction.
And at 13:54 they do at least acknowledge the issue and don't excuse what happened, while also trying to avoid tearing down Cam's character. I'm sure if I met Cam in a bar we'd talk hunting and guns (I like those sports as well). This issue has made me look at both side more fairly.
I'm also willing to listen to D&K and also Cam's podcast, as well as Jeff Garmire's pod (Free Outside). They also referenced this post:
sorry, man, but my "don't be an idi-t" handle now applies to you too.
It's not a "good point" about not having the resources to test everyone. That's a "no sh-t, Sherlock" point. No one is saying the whole field needs to be tested. No one is expecting that all the podium finishers are going to be tested, certainly for the age-groupers but probably not the pros either. As far as I know, for masters runners they have done some focused testing at USATF events based on tips/suspicions, plus the occasional podium finisher. And, ahem, Cam has admitted PED use. That's enough for a ban (or it should be), and certainly enough to subject him to testing if he ever shows up at a USATF national championship event.
"Avoid tearing down Cam's character"? You mean the character of a guy who peddles BS and is an admitted cheater, but when called out on it throws a temper tantrum? You do you, but that guy clearly sucks.
There's no "more fairly" here. If you're in the mix for a podium, you need to be clean. It's not that complicated.
I understand where Finn is coming from. Interview begins at 10:33 timestamp re: the CamSage issue and the issue ends at 19:30 before he talks about Precision Hydration or whatever.
At 12:44 she brings up a good point about not having the resources to test every runner, they barely have enough resources/items to test the elites, etc. That's a fair, valid point, and not being biased in either direction.
And at 13:54 they do at least acknowledge the issue and don't excuse what happened, while also trying to avoid tearing down Cam's character. I'm sure if I met Cam in a bar we'd talk hunting and guns (I like those sports as well). This issue has made me look at both side more fairly.
I'm also willing to listen to D&K and also Cam's podcast, as well as Jeff Garmire's pod (Free Outside). They also referenced this post:
sorry, man, but my "don't be an idi-t" handle now applies to you too.
It's not a "good point" about not having the resources to test everyone. That's a "no sh-t, Sherlock" point. No one is saying the whole field needs to be tested. No one is expecting that all the podium finishers are going to be tested, certainly for the age-groupers but probably not the pros either. As far as I know, for masters runners they have done some focused testing at USATF events based on tips/suspicions, plus the occasional podium finisher. And, ahem, Cam has admitted PED use. That's enough for a ban (or it should be), and certainly enough to subject him to testing if he ever shows up at a USATF national championship event.
"Avoid tearing down Cam's character"? You mean the character of a guy who peddles BS and is an admitted cheater, but when called out on it throws a temper tantrum? You do you, but that guy clearly sucks.
There's no "more fairly" here. If you're in the mix for a podium, you need to be clean. It's not that complicated.
I get what you are saying, but I had said something earlier about Cam and other ultrarunners that I regret, and my post was reported and deleted (369 or 370). So I'm trying to be more mature and respectful, taking the high road here.
This post was edited 38 seconds after it was posted.
Seeing the influencer crowd go wishy-washy / "both sides" on this is baffling to me.
If you are worried about the lack of resources available for testing, you should want *more* testing done for masters athletes (and to ensure that masters entry fees to USATF and similar races cover it). This will create more economies of scale for testing agencies and bring costs of testing down for everyone.
If you say you think that doping is already rampant at masters levels, you should want cheaters held accountable so that this stops. Nobody should feel that they have to dope to be competitive, and nobody who trains and competes clean should have their results be assumed to be dirty.
If you say it isn't important if someone cheats because there is no prize money involved, you should at least talk to some of the clean competitors who were beaten out by a cheater and see if they feel the same way.
seems if you are all playing monopoly and one dude says "I was totaling stealing cash from the bank the whole game on my way to victory" - who gives a flying f if we weren't policing everyone and auditing their cash, that dude should be DQ'd and asked to stop playing. and should be a social leper gong forward....
the influencer crowd follows clicks and there's probably more clicks in casual runners/hobby joggers than serious runners who don't have enough knowledge to care. look at Goggins, Karnazes, and Roche, for example - their bread and butter probably average 5-10 miles a week.
Finn is getting well and truly roasted in the comments of his YouTube video. Nice to see there are so many people who actually care about doping and plenty who also don’t see Cam as such a “nice guy” who “does so much” for the sport.
Finn is getting well and truly roasted in the comments of his YouTube video. Nice to see there are so many people who actually care about doping and plenty who also don’t see Cam as such a “nice guy” who “does so much” for the sport.
A realistic, honest, and fair solution is to not have anti-doping policies. Now that's uncomfortable for a lot of people because the public wants inspirational lies, and businesses want to make money.
Or the races could have anti-doping policies but publicly admit that they can't effectively enforce it, even with race-day testing.
Can someone tell me what is ethically wrong about a hobby jogger trying some peptides to avoid surgery. Oh because Olympic athletes can't take it? Last i checked he's a hobby jogger and not someone competing at the Olympics. People had their minds made up on cam before this certain runner made it a big deal. That's why we're not seeing a honest discussion here about the ethics of/or enforcement of wada rules(most ultras of which are not subject under) for recreational runners. I think so far Zach bitter has had the best nuance take of this subject. And we can be naive here because he's open about it, but I wouldn't be shocked if 25 to 50 percent of hobby joggers over the age of 40 have taken or are on something banned by wada. Especially when we're talking about certain injuries that could put a runner off to the sideline for a year and in America the average person doesn't have the best health insurance to take care of certain injuries on top of working full time. I'm sure one major result in this debacle is you're going see even more hobby joggers take peptides now. Because until this happened I had no idea there's stuff like BPC that can heal injuries that used to take surgery to do.
Can someone tell me what is ethically wrong about a hobby jogger trying some peptides to avoid surgery. Oh because Olympic athletes can't take it? Last i checked he's a hobby jogger and not someone competing at the Olympics. People had their minds made up on cam before this certain runner made it a big deal. That's why we're not seeing a honest discussion here about the ethics of/or enforcement of wada rules(most ultras of which are not subject under) for recreational runners. I think so far Zach bitter has had the best nuance take of this subject. And we can be naive here because he's open about it, but I wouldn't be shocked if 25 to 50 percent of hobby joggers over the age of 40 have taken or are on something banned by wada. Especially when we're talking about certain injuries that could put a runner off to the sideline for a year and in America the average person doesn't have the best health insurance to take care of certain injuries on top of working full time. I'm sure one major result in this debacle is you're going see even more hobby joggers take peptides now. Because until this happened I had no idea there's stuff like BPC that can heal injuries that used to take surgery to do.
He's competing in events with Anti-Doping policies, like the Cocodona 250. Then admitted to taking banned substances. You can be a hobby jogging PED user all you want, but when you admit it, don't be surprised if you get criticized or punished for it. Most people are smart enough to keep their mouths shut.
So it is because he's honest about taking a peptide to avoid surgery instead lying to people and saying he did the usual nonsense you'll hear from athletes talking about how they got over their injury? Mind you this peptide he took has a very short half life so even if he was a Olympic athlete in the wada testing pool chances are he would've never tested positive for it. It seems a lot of people are more mad about him being honest than anything else.
Do we post here about Cameron Hanes meeting with Rachel before her record setting Cocodona and her unbelievable performance? Or is that another thread? #Aravaipatestsbutdotheyreallllly
So it is because he's honest about taking a peptide to avoid surgery instead lying to people and saying he did the usual nonsense you'll hear from athletes talking about how they got over their injury? Mind you this peptide he took has a very short half life so even if he was a Olympic athlete in the wada testing pool chances are he would've never tested positive for it. It seems a lot of people are more mad about him being honest than anything else.
"Everyone can take a little banned substances as a treat" isn't the iron clad argument you think it is
So it is because he's honest about taking a peptide to avoid surgery instead lying to people and saying he did the usual nonsense you'll hear from athletes talking about how they got over their injury? Mind you this peptide he took has a very short half life so even if he was a Olympic athlete in the wada testing pool chances are he would've never tested positive for it. It seems a lot of people are more mad about him being honest than anything else.
Oh no, do you think the only cheating he's admitted to is the peptide?
"It seems a lot of people are more mad about him being honest than anything else."
Yeah that's what we are mad about, we're mad that he was honest. Because as long as your honest then the rules don't apply to you right? A hyperbolic example would be someone admitting to murder, would you say we are just mad they are honest then? Maybe we are upset that what they did is wrong?
Don't do mental gymnastics too hard for this Cam Hanes guy, you might have to go source some peptides.
I get what you are saying, but I had said something earlier about Cam and other ultrarunners that I regret, and my post was reported and deleted (369 or 370). So I'm trying to be more mature and respectful, taking the high road here.
That's funny, cause there's people commenting on Sage's Instagram literally saying they hope he dies
I get what you are saying, but I had said something earlier about Cam and other ultrarunners that I regret, and my post was reported and deleted (369 or 370). So I'm trying to be more mature and respectful, taking the high road here.
That's funny cause there's people commenting on Sage's Instagram literally saying they hope he d*ies. And this is the anonymous board lol
