Your comments have been solid, keep them coming if you have more. And I will repeat what I have said that generally mesh with yours, IMO Jim "over-competes" at UTMB. He brought the hyper-competitive approach from the track/roads to trail ultras, which has worked for most including States. But it has not worked here. He could learn a lot about patience/pacing from 2nd place finisher Mathieu. But he's Jim, and will more likely keep doing it Jim's way. Maybe eventually it will work. Or not.
Outside of Jim and Zach, are there any other up and coming American males ready to get in the mix?
Thank you, likewise! Agree with everything here.
I have honestly no idea about the depth of the field in US ultrarunning (I'm not a huge follower, but I like doing this stuff and got hyped for UTMB). I was kind of excited about Tollefson coming in, but he fell ill early and I couldn't think of other American male favorites to follow. And in the larger scene, I don't know enough to say anything intelligent. It might be worth looking at people who win the hillier hundreds (Hardrock) and even 50ks (Speedgoat, the Rut, Broken Arrow). Those people are more likely to have figured out the terrain than people running flat stuff. Especially because over the years, the people who gravitate to steep stuff end up accumulating so much more vertical training than most ultrarunners who do the runnable stuff. I don't know who those people are, but that might be a place to start looking. I think it's hard to train for a few months and get your vert legs ready, it's kind of a lifestyle that you have to love to have success imo.
Dylan Bowman comes to mind, after his phenomenal Hardrock performance last year. I'll bet that would translate. But I'm plumbing the depths of my knowledge there haha
Your comments have been solid, keep them coming if you have more. And I will repeat what I have said that generally mesh with yours, IMO Jim "over-competes" at UTMB. He brought the hyper-competitive approach from the track/roads to trail ultras, which has worked for most including States. But it has not worked here. He could learn a lot about patience/pacing from 2nd place finisher Mathieu. But he's Jim, and will more likely keep doing it Jim's way. Maybe eventually it will work. Or not.
Outside of Jim and Zach, are there any other up and coming American males ready to get in the mix?
Thank you, likewise! Agree with everything here.
I have honestly no idea about the depth of the field in US ultrarunning (I'm not a huge follower, but I like doing this stuff and got hyped for UTMB). I was kind of excited about Tollefson coming in, but he fell ill early and I couldn't think of other American male favorites to follow. And in the larger scene, I don't know enough to say anything intelligent. It might be worth looking at people who win the hillier hundreds (Hardrock) and even 50ks (Speedgoat, the Rut, Broken Arrow). Those people are more likely to have figured out the terrain than people running flat stuff. Especially because over the years, the people who gravitate to steep stuff end up accumulating so much more vertical training than most ultrarunners who do the runnable stuff. I don't know who those people are, but that might be a place to start looking. I think it's hard to train for a few months and get your vert legs ready, it's kind of a lifestyle that you have to love to have success imo.
Dylan Bowman comes to mind, after his phenomenal Hardrock performance last year. I'll bet that would translate. But I'm plumbing the depths of my knowledge there haha
Karl Meltzer won Hardrock 5 times I think but he was never successful at UMTB. In one year he had a DNF and in another year the race got cut short.
Karl Meltzer won Hardrock 5 times I think but he was never successful at UMTB. In one year he had a DNF and in another year the race got cut short.
I never know how to interpret results from before ultrarunning really took off. Like again, I am definitely out of my depth, but I consider Karl's dominance to be something like Jurek's. They were good for their time, but they wouldn't draw attention today (Jurek tries to refute this idea in his book, but the actual takeaway of that book for me was that he has a way bigger ego than people realize). By the numbers, Speedgoat's fastest Hardrock finish was 2-3 hours off what would be competitive today.
In either case, a single DNF is not a sign of a general lack of aptitude at a race, and UTMB is a completely different affair when it's cut in half.
I am sorry if these are low value comments, but I'm still just shook. I think he should feel very lucky for his 4th place. This is insane.
Watched a bit more, and it seems like jim is one of those runners who wants to grit it out and do the "running motion" even when hiking might be faster and more efficient. He was pumping his arms while people walked comfortably behind him. I see that from newbies all the time, but not pros.
Your comments have been solid, keep them coming if you have more. And I will repeat what I have said that generally mesh with yours, IMO Jim "over-competes" at UTMB. He brought the hyper-competitive approach from the track/roads to trail ultras, which has worked for most including States. But it has not worked here. He could learn a lot about patience/pacing from 2nd place finisher Mathieu. But he's Jim, and will more likely keep doing it Jim's way. Maybe eventually it will work. Or not.
Outside of Jim and Zach, are there any other up and coming American males ready to get in the mix?
Adam Peterman of Hoka may be a force in the future, time will tell.
Kilian said to the Spanish media that he was dealing with physical issues from the start of the race, I think it was his legs, and that it put a cap on how hard he could push. Said he tried to go with Jim when Jim pushed, but realized his body couldn't handle that pace, so he stayed back. Then having Mattieu pass him helped him pick up the pace again and follow him.
Jim said his strategy was to break Kilian with that push, which ultimately killed his legs. In hindsight, his best chance probably was to run conservatively with the lead group and push in the final climb and descent.
As a side note, Kilian's race shoes had around 300 miles in them. He said he has another pair that he uses for training, with almost 900 miles. Seems like it's going to be 180$ well spent, once they come out in the Fall. There's also going to be a cheaper model, but no details so far on the characteristics.
Kilian also linked his muscular issues during the race to COVID. While asymptomatic, he said his legs felt off from the start, especially in the downhills, and that he had to manage that throughout the race.
He also thanked Mathieu for the encouragement when he was at a low spot, and that they both helped each other and battled each other to achive this CR.
Your comments have been solid, keep them coming if you have more. And I will repeat what I have said that generally mesh with yours, IMO Jim "over-competes" at UTMB. He brought the hyper-competitive approach from the track/roads to trail ultras, which has worked for most including States. But it has not worked here. He could learn a lot about patience/pacing from 2nd place finisher Mathieu. But he's Jim, and will more likely keep doing it Jim's way. Maybe eventually it will work. Or not.
Outside of Jim and Zach, are there any other up and coming American males ready to get in the mix?
Thank you, likewise! Agree with everything here.
I have honestly no idea about the depth of the field in US ultrarunning (I'm not a huge follower, but I like doing this stuff and got hyped for UTMB). I was kind of excited about Tollefson coming in, but he fell ill early and I couldn't think of other American male favorites to follow. And in the larger scene, I don't know enough to say anything intelligent. It might be worth looking at people who win the hillier hundreds (Hardrock) and even 50ks (Speedgoat, the Rut, Broken Arrow). Those people are more likely to have figured out the terrain than people running flat stuff. Especially because over the years, the people who gravitate to steep stuff end up accumulating so much more vertical training than most ultrarunners who do the runnable stuff. I don't know who those people are, but that might be a place to start looking. I think it's hard to train for a few months and get your vert legs ready, it's kind of a lifestyle that you have to love to have success imo.
Dylan Bowman comes to mind, after his phenomenal Hardrock performance last year. I'll bet that would translate. But I'm plumbing the depths of my knowledge there haha
based on HR this year I think Dakota Jones could do it
based on HR this year I think Dakota Jones could do it
We should have a utmb development program in the US. Find promising steep athletes and pull them out of our ultra circuit that emphasizes running on Jeep roads with a nice view, and encourage them to run the few actually steep races we are blessed with in this country. No more of these road races that happen to be on trail surfaces for them. There is room for success if we have multiple pipelines. I'd love to see what Dakota Jones and Dylan Bowman could do if they were freed from Koop's rigid approach that is one step away from Jack Daniels formula
Why does it feel like kilian is the most transparent runner about what he's going through by a mile? "Here's my data, here's how I'm feeling, here's my covid journey leading up to the race, I'm not sure I can do this but I'll try".
Is he just so confident that he feels like he can show behind the curtain and there's still nothing anyone can do to stop him? It feels like everyone else is doing some performative act of vulnerability, in comparison.
Adam Peterman has yet to run a bad race so I definitely agree he has great potential and I'd love to see him run it next year. I think David Sinclair would also be exciting. Having a nordic skiing background, he has a lot of the tools that some of the runners who transitioned to the trails don't have such as lots of experience using poles as well as just embracing the mountains during all seasons. For this reason I actually the east coast scene may be a better training ground for races like UTMB than somewhere like flag or boulder, and the ultra runners in the area who originally come from other sports such as skiing may be best suited to a race like this.
There's this guy Jack Kuenzle who has basically all the major FKTs in the north east that I think would be interesting to see. One of these is the White Mountains 100 (https://fastestknowntime.com/route/white-mountains-100-nh) which is a gnarly point to point 100 along the white mountains section of the AT. I would love to see him run something like UTMB even though these organized, mega sponsored races don't seem to be his scene.
I think David Sinclair would also be exciting. Having a nordic skiing background, he has a lot of the tools that some of the runners who transitioned to the trails don't have such as lots of experience using poles as well as just embracing the mountains during all seasons. For this reason I actually the east coast scene may be a better training ground for races like UTMB than somewhere like flag or boulder, and the ultra runners in the area who originally come from other sports such as skiing may be best suited to a race like this.
Can you clarify what you mean about the east coast being a better training area than flag or boulder? You are sharing good insights, I just didn't understand that bit. Do you mean the east coast is better to practice nordic skiing all winter? (not a skier myself)
Thats interesting that he is thinking it was covid related. I noticed he posted on August 1st that he was struggling a bit with recovering from Hardrock which we be a little too far back to have been covid related. Unless he has long covid or something.
Still, thats crazy he was able to set a new CR while not feeling 100%.
Adam Peterman has yet to run a bad race so I definitely agree he has great potential and I'd love to see him run it next year. I think David Sinclair would also be exciting. Having a nordic skiing background, he has a lot of the tools that some of the runners who transitioned to the trails don't have such as lots of experience using poles as well as just embracing the mountains during all seasons. For this reason I actually the east coast scene may be a better training ground for races like UTMB than somewhere like flag or boulder, and the ultra runners in the area who originally come from other sports such as skiing may be best suited to a race like this.
There's this guy Jack Kuenzle who has basically all the major FKTs in the north east that I think would be interesting to see. One of these is the White Mountains 100 (https://fastestknowntime.com/route/white-mountains-100-nh) which is a gnarly point to point 100 along the white mountains section of the AT. I would love to see him run something like UTMB even though these organized, mega sponsored races don't seem to be his scene.
Yeah I always thought Alex Nichols would do well there who also has a nordic ski background. But I dont know if he is not super focused on trying to win ultras or just doesnt have the capacity.
It was cool to see Zach dial it back this year and run a much smarter race than he has in the past. I thought for sure he would blow up or DNF. Perhaps he can build off of that and do even better next year.
I think for sure Dakota Jones if he can stay healthy and DBo could still have a shot at the podium if they focus on it.