What is your current mileage? Are you able to support 30 minutes of Sub-T work with 5 hours of easy running on top? if so I can give you some suggestions based on a VDOT value of 42 (6:17min for 1500). I recommend to run by time instead of distance. Become a slave of your watch (pace or power). Here are the three workouts: 4min Reps @ 10k pace (7 reps and one 1min rest in between): 7:44min/mile or 4:48min/km 6min reps (5 reps and 60-90sec rest): 7:50min/mile or 4:52min/km 8min reps (4 reps and 90sec rest): 7:56min/mile or 4:56min/km Give it a go and adjust if it feels too hard or too easy, but this should be roughly right for your current fitness. do the same every week. Run the easy day super easy (no faster than 10:12min/mile or 6:20min/km). Re-test fitness after 4-6 weeks or whenever you feel like the sub-T gets too easy (i.e. you are not reaching your threshold heart rate by the end of the last rep). Hope this helps
This is WONDERFUL. Even for runners I know at that pace or slower, it appears it is scalable to anyone's fitness based on a given race result.
I.e. if you are a 25-26 5k, 51-53 10k, 1:58-2:00 1/2, 4:05-4:10 full runner...you can still use these to get down to 22-23/47-48/1:50/3:55 over a few months...
Sirpoc with 3x5000m (about 3x15min) lately. Those were run at 3:17 pace which must be pretty close to his FTP!. Even assuming his 5k pace is 3:00 already then FTP would be 3:11 (Sirpoc mentioned he uses 94% of 5k power as FTP) so 3:17 is 97% of FTP. He used to run 3200s at this intensity. It's slowly becoming more threshold than subthreshold it seems to me!
I saw someone mention the power stuff I posted from ages ago. I would ignore that, by the middle of the thread I had given up on power (sadly) as it doesn't work how I need or would like it to. Or more to the point it is the absolute worst metric I had after I had 6+ months of data. Now I'm a couple of years in, I'm definitely confident power is useless, in my scenario. I'm not saying people won't find it useful, but it's not consistent enough across the board for me to be invested in it.
As for the longer workouts, they have been carefully designed so like the other workouts I am sitting a decent amount under LTHR for the majority and maybe finishing up around (but just under) LTHR.
First big session of these I dug the lactate meter back out, to give myself an idea of where I am at on these and I am pretty happy with the plan I have in place.
The pace or % of a race pace is largely irrelevant, it's the actual state I'm interested in. I'll probably never do enough of these for me to be confident of giving out a general guide for these extra long reps. But, it's a tad faster marathon pace. I also, suspect, because of my aerobic engine, it's probably tricky for people to replicate these sessions themselves like for like. I can definitely complete this at a paces faster to race paces, than I could even a year ago. I certainly wouldn't recommend or jump in on these.
Quick question, b/c you actually purchased a lactate meter, how long did it take you to get used to the process of pricking yourself, checking the blood, etc. and getting it right? I know you have mentioned you don't *need* one per se, but I think that'd even refine your results even better than before.
r/advancedrunning folks seem fairly inflexible in their regimens. r/artc is basically on life support as a sub.
thanks for the clarification. I try to post things on r/advancedrunning and even if they are on target the mods go crazy. And every post is basically a race recap.
r/artc seems cool and full of fast people but more an inside joke-thing with local runners in Ohio I think.
When I first started visiting Reddit, ARTC used to be the big running page beyond r/running and was good reading generally. I even have a couple of ARTC singlets that were put together, complete with moose logo. But the big falling out between them and Advanced Running really hit them hard it seems.
thanks for the clarification. I try to post things on r/advancedrunning and even if they are on target the mods go crazy. And every post is basically a race recap.
r/artc seems cool and full of fast people but more an inside joke-thing with local runners in Ohio I think.
When I first started visiting Reddit, ARTC used to be the big running page beyond r/running and was good reading generally. I even have a couple of ARTC singlets that were put together, complete with moose logo. But the big falling out between them and Advanced Running really hit them hard it seems.
They are super-strict about what can be posted. While LRC can be toxic at times, even posting well-intentioned workout posts always get banned even on r/running and r/advancedrunning
It's all at moderator discretion over there. LRC is far better.
It was difficult, thank you for telling me to slow down. My mindset also changed quickly: previously, I was keeping my easy days easy just to keep it under 70%, but now I'm also trying to keep it easy so I can be able to do 3 quality sessions for the week.
Quick question: Do you care about sub threshold effort relative to total volume? I've read that most of you keep a 1:3 ratio, but I'm a bit confused on how do you count the sub threshold, e.g. for a 5 x 6 min ON, 2 min OFF, do you count it as 30 min or 40 min of quality?
You do want to watch quality : easy volume, as that gives you a proxy for the level of strain that your body can safely handle. I do it based on time at pace, not volume, and not including the rests even if they’re jogged.
I‘m a bit confused by your focus on very short intervals. Because they’re so short, your margin of error for pacing correctly becomes razor thin… and your HR data suggests to me you’re erring here. Your avg HR on your rests should be noticeably lower than your ON intervals! Instead it’s effectively the same or even higher. For comparison, when I do 1km repeats with 60 sec jogging rest, I’ll still see an avg >=10bpm lower, and my HR will come down to ~70% MHR before the next interval starts.
You might be eliciting a sub-threshold state on these workouts, but the design makes me think more of tightly controlled fartlek and I suspect your lactate levels are bouncing and rising throughout. It’s sustainable at the moment because you’re not doing very much quality volume — just under 10% of total weekly volume (36min of 375min). That’s just not very much stimulus. I‘m not suggesting jumping into 20-25% of your total volume right away, but I think you will really benefit more from longer intervals and larger workout volume. Try 6 x 3min (60sec rest) and 3 x 6min (90sec rest) to start. That’ll give you 18min of quality in each session, which is still on the low end for the time volume you’re doing per week. You can add more in coming weeks to get up to 20%, then assess from there.
It‘s not that shorter intervals can‘t have their place in a system like this, but maintaining a pace for longer periods requires training mechanical efficiency too, and with 60sec/30sec you’re changing gears an awful lot. That’s why most everyone here is doing 3-4min as their shortest interval.
Thank you for your perspective and tips! It seems that there is plenty of room to add more intensity, but as you said, just not right away. Even though it's not much now, it's more than I've done this winter and I'm not feeling that I'm doing too little, just the right amount so far. As for the short reps, it's part of the build-up, but I might adjust it. I've said previously that I want to mimic Jakob's sessions (25 x 400 off 30s, 10 x 1K off 1 min and 5 x 6 min/2 min) by making them time-based, so I imagined Jakob runs the 400s at around 60 and Ks around 3:00. I've started with very little(10 x 30s/30s) and slowly extending the number and/or the length of the reps to adjust both to the increasing threshold volume and to the mindset, as I've been previously trained with polarized training. The plan is to get to 5 x 3:00/1:00 and then go in 2 directions, 1/ towards 10 x 3:00/1:00 and 2/ towards 5 x 6:00/2:00. I will have to decide at some point if I want to keep the 60s intervals or go for longer, but for now I'm trying to shoot for 25 reps to have some decent volume before moving up. As for breaks, the HR raises during the interval and I'm starting the rest with the peak HR of the previous rep and jogging it doesn't lower HR too much. Maybe when the reps get longer I will have more stable HR during the reps and more chances to drop it during the breaks. During the last 5 x 2:00/0:45 session I had no cardiac drift from rep to rep, so I don't know if I have to dial back on effort, but will error on cautious side whenever I feel like it.
Thank you for your perspective and tips! It seems that there is plenty of room to add more intensity, but as you said, just not right away. Even though it's not much now, it's more than I've done this winter and I'm not feeling that I'm doing too little, just the right amount so far. As for the short reps, it's part of the build-up, but I might adjust it. I've said previously that I want to mimic Jakob's sessions (25 x 400 off 30s, 10 x 1K off 1 min and 5 x 6 min/2 min) by making them time-based, so I imagined Jakob runs the 400s at around 60 and Ks around 3:00. I've started with very little(10 x 30s/30s) and slowly extending the number and/or the length of the reps to adjust both to the increasing threshold volume and to the mindset, as I've been previously trained with polarized training. The plan is to get to 5 x 3:00/1:00 and then go in 2 directions, 1/ towards 10 x 3:00/1:00 and 2/ towards 5 x 6:00/2:00. I will have to decide at some point if I want to keep the 60s intervals or go for longer, but for now I'm trying to shoot for 25 reps to have some decent volume before moving up. As for breaks, the HR raises during the interval and I'm starting the rest with the peak HR of the previous rep and jogging it doesn't lower HR too much. Maybe when the reps get longer I will have more stable HR during the reps and more chances to drop it during the breaks. During the last 5 x 2:00/0:45 session I had no cardiac drift from rep to rep, so I don't know if I have to dial back on effort, but will error on cautious side whenever I feel like it.
Why on earth are you trying to replicate jakob's sessions? You realise he is doubling? Right? If you intend to double, then this thread isn't for you. Either way I'm pretty confused. Sure, there are people doing the lower mileage method very well, obviously sirpoc being the absolute best example. But it's really pretty far away from Jakob.
The last thing you should be doing where you are at is even thinking about what a pro , who has unlimited time , is doing.
I have been doing this since the new year and feeling really good overall, easier pace becoming quicker, sub threshold paces quicker as well. What do we consider low mileage? I've always been a lower mileage runner, and don't want to get injured again.
Why on earth are you trying to replicate jakob's sessions? You realise he is doubling? Right? If you intend to double, then this thread isn't for you. Either way I'm pretty confused. Sure, there are people doing the lower mileage method very well, obviously sirpoc being the absolute best example. But it's really pretty far away from Jakob.
The last thing you should be doing where you are at is even thinking about what a pro , who has unlimited time , is doing.
I am not considering doubling. The plan is to do 3 sessions in a week, as I stated previously:
- 25 x 60s/30s
- 10 x 3:00/1:00
- 5 x 6:00/2:00
This is just a starting point. Once I'll build up to do those 3 sessions in a week, I will see what would be the next step, staying like that for a while or make the reps longer. I know that sirpoc and rest of the runners here do have longer reps, but that looks intimidating when you are just starting out. Jakob's (or other pro's) schedule is obviously out of question.
I appreciate that you've taken the time to provide constructive feedback. Just a down vote doesn't help you learn.
Also on reddit you don't get long running posts like this one, so instead of a coherent thread history and interesting updates every few weeks you get surface level content reposted every week. The quality threads on LRC are definitely higher quality than reddit.
There's obviously a million ways to train. There might be a better one on 7 days a week and only an hour or so to dedicate to training in a day. But if there is, i'm yet to have tried it. I'm absolutely not the guardian of this system, despite what the internet seems to think. If there is another or better way to train and someone could show me that, I'll jump all over for it. After all I basically just stole this idea from my own training in another life as a cyclist, of which I just stole from others. All I've done really is lay it out or I guess communicate what I've done in a way people can interpret or understand. There's far smarter people than me in this thread who pick the bones out of the science of it.
Hi Sirpoc,
I can think of 3 ways that elicit similar input and output:
1. What you are already proposing: Sub-T with intervals ranging from 3-10mins adding up to around 30 mins of work in total.
2. Marathon pace continuous runs of around 45mins, perhaps up to 1h (the pace would likely be below MP, more around high-end aerobic if you are closer to elite)
3. Shorter Sub-T intervals: Sub-T with intervals of 30 secs to 90 seconds depending on level of runner, but roughly 200m and 400m intervals ranging from mile pace up to 8k pace. Also, possible to include 800m interval at 15k pace. This is what many call the easy interval method developed by Verheul and adapted by Klaas Lok.
Think of it this way on a spectrum of sub-T stimulus: continuous 3hr pace run to long intervals (sirpoc method) to short intervals (verheul method) all performed at a pace that ideally stays just under LT2.
I have tried all of them all and my preference over the years has shifted more from continuous MP runs (which I did almost daily that is difficult to believe now, but I had no life stress at that point, so was able to absorb it) to short intervals.
The way I think about long sub-T vs. short sub-T intervals is there are trade offs:
Long sub-T intervals (say 6x1k, 3x2k, 2x3k for a slower runner) has the advantage of accumulating a lot of running right below threshold, but it does not involve faster paces, so doesn't engage full range of muscle fiber activation, neuro-muscular adaptation, etc. (for example HM-30k pace all involve high activation of slow twitch, but little fast twitch, etc.)
Short sub-T intervals (20x200m, 15x400m) has the advantage of practicing faster paces with fast twitch activation, running economy, etc. as above, but it does not accumulate as much running right below threshold due to HR rising and declining during shorter intervals. This results in a lower average HR than long sub-T intervals. Think of it this way if LT2 occurs at HR 170, a 2k run will have the majority of it in 165-170, whereas a 400m interval will have less than half of it in that HR range. Even if the total distance covered is the same shorter intervals result in lower total load than longer intervals.
So I think those are the main tradeoffs between the two. Long sub-T intervals are basically a happy medium between continuous and longer MP runs and shorter sub-T intervals.
What are your training modifications for your London Marathon?? Do you have any or do you keep the same system mentioned herein? (based on the English saying 'Never touch a running system')
What are your training modifications for your London Marathon?? Do you have any or do you keep the same system mentioned herein? (based on the English saying 'Never touch a running system')
All the best for your marathon.
Horrible modifications to an already HORRIBLE training plan.
Sirpoopy has sent so many people down the wrong road when it comes to training, he should be locked up and thrown in jail.
SirPoc, may I ask if you have any guidance on how you took the lactate measurements? Is it as easy as measuring straight after the last interval? Just make a hole in the finger, press out drop, wipe of, press out again making sure no sweat is in the blood, then suck it up with the Lactate Pro 2 strip?
SirPoc, may I ask if you have any guidance on how you took the lactate measurements? Is it as easy as measuring straight after the last interval? Just make a hole in the finger, press out drop, wipe of, press out again making sure no sweat is in the blood, then suck it up with the Lactate Pro 2 strip?
Buy disposable small alcohol wipes/prep-pads and disposable cotton/dry pads.
When I go for a run, I put an alcohol wipe, a cotton pad, a strip, and two lances in the lactate pro 2 container.
Before my run, I set the container down in the area I'm going to test (note there are temp requirements for the strips, so if you're doing it in freezing temperatures, I leave it in my car). I insert the strip loosely in the lactate pro 2 -- not all the way pushed in, but close. That way you don't have to fish for it when you're done running.
After running, I tear open the alcohol wipe, rub over two fingers (usually middle and ring of left hand) and also over index and thumb of my right hand to avoid contamination. Then I tear open the pad and dry the alcohol. Prick with the lancet on one of the two wiped fingers, press out a drop, wipe off with the pad, press out a drop again. You want the drop to be large, because you want to dip the top of the lactate pro strip into the top of the drop withoutpressing down into your finger. This also means its easiest if you can rest the lactate pro and strip somewhere, and move your finger up into it, rather than holding the lactate pro and moving down onto your finger -- more stable and precise that way. When you see the blood start moving into the strip, hold for 2 seconds. Moving quickly away will likely lead to errors.
Then make sure you throw away all the med waste, might be worth bringing a disposal bag to do so.
5.do a "helicopter" (circular movement) with the arm. Press out some blood. Wipe it with paper. Be a bit careful with the "helicopter" movement. not always neccesary if there is good blood flow.
6.Do another "helicopter", press out a good drop of blod and take the measurement. I have a technique where I rest the hand I measure on with the hand I hold the meter in so it becomes quite stable. Only the blood drop should touch the strip.
I do not use alcohol wipes but it is very rare that I have failed measurements. Main reason if when there is too little blood, but I am stupid enought to take the measurement anyway. Have mostly been using the "Lactate Plus". Also had a Lactate Scout, but that was much more difficult to get good measurements with.
What a great thread, just finished reading through the whole thing and feel I have really learned something. Not often you can say that about LRC!
Like any good boxset, was great having almost the end story or close to it and following sirpoc over nearly 2 years now. Inspiring, for another old guy like me! Obviously I know I will never run a 15, but maybe I can turn that 20 into an 18. Will be applying a lot of this to my own training, which in recent years ticks all the boxes of all or nothing , which seems to usually result in poor performance.
Genuinely surprised some of the running podcasts focused on hobby jogging hasn't got sirpoc on as a guest. Absolutely would be great to get more of this. But hey, I'm just greedy as this whole darn thread was so good and on the whole positive. Despite Lexel's attempts to make it about him!