Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

this thread is insanely long but the idea seems good and i've been pointed here many times, however i don't really want to read 202 pages of this. can anyone summarize the main points and provide some advice on the following?

training for the 1500-5k area, planning to do around 40mpw

coming off of a slight hiatus

doing rest/thresh/easy/thresh/easy/thresh/long

or should i do only 2 thresh

thanks

might include hill sprints or strides then more event specific work after about 6 weeks

There is a good summary of the methodology on page 60 so go back and read there to find the specifics of typical sessions and paces. Define the number of hours available for training, allocate max 25% of time to sub-treshold sessions. Establish your starting fitness and define workout paces based on that. The goal is introduce consistency and move away from the build and bust cycles (no more hiatus going forward). Get to a baseline structure that works for you and gradually increase it. Learn how to track your training load metrics if you want to be able to quantify your consistency (i.e. learn about CTL and plan to increase it gradually over time).

You are not going to listen to my next point because you haven't read through the thread and you are not going to, but the key point of this methodology is that you don't need hill sprints or strides to get faster. I've read through the entire discussing over a couple of weeks and it put a smile on my face reading all the haters literally pooping on Sirpoc for how he is training, and yet, week after week, month after month he is still smashing PBs in the 5K up to the HM distance. This works because most of us are aerobically underdeveloped and speed is not the limiting factor until you hit very fast paces. Even the mile is 80% Aerobic, so working on the aerobic engine is what will give you the most time-efficient training load. ALso, easy day should be extremely easy, and there is no "i felt good in this sub-T session so i converted it into VO2 session". It is extremely boring, same thing, week in week out. Will you get faster results using a traditional Daniles plan? Possibly. But you are also way more likely to hit a brick-wall, injure yourself, lose motivation from feeling exhausted. So are you in for the long term? Stick with this plan until you plateu (and sploiler, still no sign of plateuing from Sirpoc, now approching the sub-15 5K in his forties)

I personally don't think it's optimal to not do any hill sessions, stride work, even 5k pace stuff. I would always recommend people adapt for this. You will thank me at the end of a 5k. Don't forget, sirpoc isn't from a running background and hasn't been coached by a proper coach. Any real coach would have optimised his ability. You could say he's managed to run a low 15 in spite of this, rather that because of this. Just looking at it from a running coach point of view.

I've made a long career out of coaching and I'm reasonably insulted that suddenly people are latching onto the next training fad and forgetting that something like a Daniel's inspired method has worked time and time again for decades.

If you think you can buy into Coggan's fantasy world of being able to quantify load, it's been proven time and time again there is no actual way to do this. Feel, day to day, session to session and providing feedback to a professional coach will ALWAYS be a better way of accounting for load than this. Runners aren't robot cyclists and won't ever be. You can't treat them as such.

I hope that message can get through to some people. Rather than this sudden idea this is going to solve everyone's problems and is some sort of miracle pill.

You are absolutely spot on.

But you haven't read Sirpoc's posts or maybe you have and it got lost in all the noise.

He has said all along that this idea sub optimal and is directed at the time constrained athlete. That usually means older people with work and families.

If all you can do is dedicate 1 hour a day to training (not 1 hour with a 20 min each way commute to a track and a 2 mile warm up beforehand so that you're ready on the dot to start strides and drills before you hit your intervals) then this may be for you.

It most beneficial for 5k to half marathon because all it does is work the aerobic system at a speed sharp enough to stimulate a lactate response without exceeding threshold so to avoid excess fatigue. And you need to race frequently enough to keep touch with harder stuff even if its just a park run.

You need all the other stuff to be exceptional but for the Hobby Jogger this is good enough. I'm paraphrasing the people on this thread who know their stuff but that is the size of it.

The scientific world certainly has.

Specifically, there has been an explosion of research using the term "training load" since ca. 2000. Go here and you will see what I mean:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Training load exercise - Search Results - PubMed

Training load exercise - Search Results - PubMed

Link:pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Training...

Much of this research relates to injury risk, driven in part by the work of Tim Gabbett:

archive.trainingground.guru

Training Ground Guru | Tim Gabbett's guide to acute-chronic load

@ground_guru

TIM GABBETT is one of the most sought-after sports scientists in the world. He talked in-depth to TGG about his influential acute-chronic training ratios.

Link:archive.trainingground.guru/articles/l...

This study in particular has always made me chuckle:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Calculating acute:chronic workload ratios using exponentially weighted moving averages provides a more sensitive indicator of injury likelihood than rolling averages - PubMed

These findings demonstrate that large spikes in workload are associated with an increased injury risk using both models, although the EWMA model is more sensitive to detect increases in injury risk with higher ACWR.

Link:pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28003238/

Of course, only a fool would ignore how an athlete actually feels. That's why I have long drawn people's attention to Foster's session RPE approach to quantifying training load. Differences between this subjective measure and objective measurements based on, e.g., power, is often a red flag, and can help in spotting issues before they become serious.

OK, this is where your whole argument falls down. Anyone who has seen sirpoc's latest 5k and see's how he finished, knows this is laughable.

This is a webpage made by a Letsrun hero summarizing the key points and Sirpoc posts:

QFE. Sirpoc’s last k was in the 2:50s and he never came close to running that pace in a workout. His fastest k was at least 10s slower.

This is where I am starting to rethink everything I know about what I thought 'speed' or VO2 max workouts help with. It's definitely not what a lot of runners and coaches think it is, or what it helps. As you say, he's never even ventured into that kind of pace even at the end of 1k sessions. Yet finishes stronger like he has a better kick than just about anyone who does this kind of work. This is in most races as well from looking at his Strava.

It makes a mockery of 90% of the criticism people throw at this thread.

He ran 15:17 but finished in a 2:5x? Doesn't sound right to me. Likely a GPS error. I doubt anyone without training that speed can finish like that. I agree with the poster above, I would say if only he knew how to train properly, it would be great to see what he can do rather in spite of this very bad training method

Or Daniel’s is holding you back.

Easy for you to test, use the sirpoc protocol for 8-12 weeks and compare how you do.

other than hitting paces either side of half marathon effort, it’s all about consistently, unlike Daniels parking and thoughts and more like lydiard without the peaking

Although your point is good (practicing race pace seems to be overrated), what you have here is not true. He closed in 2:54 on race day and ran 3:01 in practice.

Still so counter-intuitive that he never ran as fast for a K as he closed in. But he did come within 10 seconds.

This. Daniel's was holding me back. Seasoned runner here, love the thread. Jumped in around Easter last year and never looked back. Went from 38 to 33 in almost a year using sirpoc method in a 10k, which has been my focus. Training 4+ years almost exclusively with a Daniel's inspired coach after using the books basic plans myself for a cycle. Previously unstructed training for the two years previous. 33 years old.

The big factor is the boom and bust Daniel's and his followers bring. It's insane when you think about it. In my opinion, that way of training is actually probably the best way if you are looking for just a 16 week block or build to one point in time. Almost the fit person, but casual runner than maybe has signed up to a half or 10k and it's all they care about. But outside of that, it's actually insanely sub optimal.

For the seasoned runner, I'm 100% now behind what sirpoc has laid out will make you better over a long period. It's not even close. I'm glad and thankful I found the thread. Haven't posted before but the above really resonated with me and thought I must throw my hat into the ring.

Okay, he came within 7 seconds a k a *few* times. Very rarely. If you’re going to be splitting hairs like this you’re completely missing the point.

Starting this week, I'm officially starting my journey with this approach.

Stats & PRs:

• M, 34 yo, 197 HRmax, 1.80m, 77 kg (about +10 kg compared to my race weight)
• 1000 - 3:03.10i

• 1500 - 4:50.05i

• 5K - 18:21
• 10K - 38:10

Current shape is more like 21:00 and 43:00 for 5k/10k.

I have actually started a month ago with 10 x 30s/30s, then 8 x 45s/30s, slowly building my way. My plan is to replicate Jakob's sessions in terms of time, so end goal is:

• 25 x 60s/30s

• 10 x 3:00/1:00
• 5 x 6:00/2:00

The plan is to run the short reps at 3:50-4:00, mid reps at 4:00-4:15 and long reps at 4:15-4:30. I'll go with 40 mins for easy days and 70 mins for long, for now, and adjust later on, if needed.

I've said I started this week because I was not really controlling my easy runs, I was free-styling, even before thinking about Norwegian singles, which didn't leave enough energy for workouts and for my work/family and this had to change. I'm planning to use HR for this, avoiding going over 70% HRmax (138 HR) like the plague.

This week, so far:

• M - 7.1K @ 5:48/km (136 HR)

• T - 12 x 60s ON / 30s OFF, ON: avg. 4:01/km @ 175 HR, OFF: avg. 5:20/km @ 176 HR

I don't know if I can do quality sessions every 2 days yet, still adjusting mentally to the approach. I could do 1 Q session every 3 days initially, until I'm fixing the effort levels to go for 3 Qs/week. I'm probably running the reps too fast, but will learn & adapt the paces.

My next session is 5 x 2:00/0:45 (ran 1:45/0:45 last week) scheduled for tomorrow. The plan is to build to 5 x 3:00/1:00 and then split the way, go for more reps at 3:00/1:00 or go for 5x longer reps up to 6:00/2:00.

But let's not rush, will go for an easy run today.

I agree with you! It was very rarely. But to say that he never came close and then specifically say not even within 10 seconds is just incorrect.

I was actually surprised by how close to average 5k pace he was for some of his more intense workouts.

You say you're in 21 min 5K shape. But all your reps, including 3 and 6 mins, seem comparable or faster than your 5K pace (~4:12/km).

Also 2 min rests for 6 mins of running is way too long for a sub-T workout.

I have noticed this, to the point I wondered if I was missing something that I asked sirpoc direct. It's usually on 10*1k you are talking about but with a tailwind, for last rep. You can notice when it windy with his 10*1k on non track as average pace seem to deviate maybe +-5 seconds sometimes more on alternate laps. He confirm this.

I also ask him about race at weekend. No wind almost at all he said, calm day which is why he did race last minute choice. I think he senses pace probably going to be lower by maybe 10 seconds at least on a looped 5k. I think more. If you look at Strava, 4 points in race where he had almost gone down to zero pace. 3+ turns + another moment you can see in run where he almost had to come to stop and accelerate again due to lap traffic. Official dead turns at 0.6, 1.2 and around 3.1km I think .

I urge him to maybe do a proper 5k course so we can find out if he can break 15. Last 3k where mostly clear run and only 1 dead turn and no traffic, 9:00 dead.

Agreed, it's probably too aggressive. However, I'm expecting the shape to improve quickly once I'm dropping the extra weight. The yesterday session was too difficult to be about threshold, but I was hoping that adding more reps until 25x would slow down the pace naturally.

Anyway, easy run done for today.

• W - 7K @ 6:08 (137 HR)

I had to slow down a bit to keep the HR low enough. However, it was so easy that I was feeling better at the end of the run compared to how I started. I might try to do the Q session tomorrow, being mindful about the effort and eventually slowing down a bit.

As for the 2-min breaks for the 6-min intervals, isn't Jakob doing 5 x 6'/2', too? I'm also not too eager to have 1-min breaks of mostly standing/walking (or have I misread the thread?), I'd rather run/jog for 2 mins.