Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

You mention that he'd be testing his marathon pace, but by the looks of things he's getting up towards his threshold heart rate by the end of each rep, so I wonder how sustainable such a pace really could be.

I get the sense that he's currently slightly reluctant to comment on the adaptations to his training, because he's knows full well he's quite publicly testing his thesis and it's going to be a massive challenge, and then if he underperforms his VDot, he'll catch heat from some of the trolls on here (and even probably if he outperforms it too).

Kudos to him, he appears to have so far really nailed his colours to the mast. The principles are the same in terms of structure. Easy, Sub-T, and a long run. The only parameters he's really adjusting are the duration of the runs and the length of the reps at sub-threshold.

I’ll be curious to see if any harder long runs enter the equation from about 8 weeks out.
Though they may not be necessary: total cumulative volume mainly via ramping the 3x SubT and Long Run could well generate enough load to prepare fairly well.

I’m nowhere near his level, but my best marathons came from a relatively similar philosophy (albeit nowhere near as structured or well thought out as what Sirpoc is doing), with no harder long runs. So I for one think just scaling the normal week could work.

I’m sure being Sirpoc is likely a bit of a burden now, but I’m thankful that he’s openly testing conventional running wisdom on himself like this and takes the time to share advice.

We Sirpoc changes now his training method, we should exactly
know what that is, otherwise we compare apples to bananas.

He's literally not changing anything. He's scaling everything up for a marathon. That's about it. Personally, it's not what I would do. But it's not for me to question. He's faster than me. He's faster than I'll ever be. He likely knows more about training than me. So what I think I'm sure he doesn't care about and good luck to him, I will be keeping an eye out for London. I don't think I've ever been more interested in a non-elite in a big race.

Scaling up is not a change?? Apples/bananas. Increasing volume i a significant change.

I think you have misunderstood what he means. Obviously, more volume required to run the marathon. But he's doing more volume now, than he did 2 years ago. He's always increased volume, almost unnoticed the build is so slow. But his training principle is absolutely the same, 75-25 ish split between time running easy and time running sub threshold. Scaled up from 5 hours a week to 7.5 and now likely 8+.

If he hasn't increased volume and just had stayed the same a ability really and not improved any further. The whole point of this is you can probably increase load beyond what any other running plans put in place. Or certainly maximise or make the most of the time you have available.

Many people have scaled this up or down , based on the available time you have. But the basics remain the same, you are running workouts in a sustainable way, 3 times a week. The change would be if the E-ST-E-ST-E-ST-LONG routine gets broken.

Just to add my thoughts. Sirpoc I'm rooting for, but I don't think he will break 2:30 in his first attempt. I would advise him in all honesty to go down the 2Q approach for the next 8 weeks. His big base means if he started now, there's plenty of time to do the tail end of a more traditional marathon plan which will almost certainly have better results.

For 5k-HM I would obviously not advise to change anything. It works remarkably well. But most people have blown their marathons when they have tried to train like this.

Does the sequencing of the LR matter?

E, LR, ST

or

ST, LR, E

or

E, LR, E

Far easier to do the last otherwise you have two relatively hard sessions back to back, probably not an issue in the short term but over the long term more likely. Obviously the long run can be done any day of the week

I'm actually inclined to agree. When he ran 1:10:02 he was ill and felt he was in 1:08-ish shape which was his target had he been healthy. He's really smart with data plotting and race predictions so whenever he expects a time I'd believe it to be around so nearly every time. He's great at pacing and measuring race efforts too. I haven't ever seen him blow up any distance 5k-HM, though of course marathon is something else.

1:08-ish is well clear of what's needed to at least break 2:30. I say he does it easily if he paces super conservatively out in around 75. Otherwise there's always the risk of first time marathon bonking that plagues everyone. But a 75 opener would be almost trivial, that's 17:46 5k pace. He could then ratchet it down towards 17:00s if he feels good. Probably leaves some time on the table running this way but a guaranteed sub 2:30.

I agree with a lot of this. It's cool for fans of this thread there is two things in play at London, will Kiplimo run under 2 and will a 41 year old hobby jogger go sub 2:30, from nearly nowhere, even when this thread started the jump in levels is insane. I'm saying yes to both. I think you have laid out 2:30 is pretty easy paced like that. I think the under/over is probably lower than 2:30.

One other reason I have confidence, is the course record for parkrun he just broke. It looks a really terrible course on paper, 3 dead turns, half of it on gravel and he ran 15:41. Not only that, I am as my name suggests a Strava snoot and 2-3 of the guys who time he beat just about on that course I had a look from Strava segment, have run sub 15 elsewhere and well under a sub 2:30 marathon, actually quite a bit under. I know that doesn't tell the whole story, but just thought I would add that. As yes he 'only' ran 15:41 but it's also basically reminiscent of a faster XC course.

Anyway good luck to him and thanks for everything that's been brought to the thread, a marathon will be a nice way to round it off. Although I suspect if LRC is still going in another 20 years this be one of those ones that is classed as 'old gold' and linked back to.

As you have 3 ST per week with an easy day in between the option 3, E, LR, E is impossible.

For me the option 2, ST, LR, E is the only reasonable as you can still do an easy LR the day after an ST.

I think it would be harder to have a good ST after a LR.

You know me too well, sir. You know me too well.

Scratch that. I don't really care how well you know me.

The epitaph on my tombstone will read either:

"I yam what I yam and that's all I yam"

or

"He did not suffer fools gladly"

I know, I know, poor form replying to one's self, but the general "Reply" button for the thread generated a 404: error.

Anyway! I am not a runner, and have read only a tiny fraction of this thread, but several posts in the last few pages resonated with me. If I had to sum my thoughts up in one word, it would be:

Patience!

Too often, people want to overcomplicate training, and also want to rush the process. Instead, the focus should be on general training principles, especially specificity and overload, always keeping an eye on *long term* improvement. IOW, baby steps, not leaps and bounds, something that presumably applies even more so to running than to cycling (due to injury concerns). Other than that, there is no magic, just lots and lots and lots of work.

(Hat tip to Rick Murphy, who independently figured this out as well in the early 2000s, patiently continually extending his Computrainer rides to failure, and only bumping the intensity when he couldn't devote even more time because of all the snow he needed to shovel in Nova Scotia.)

You seem to have me confused with Arthur Lydiard.

Nice post, Andrew. You are really just reaffirming a lot of the stuff sirpoc has seem to apart to the process for his running, so it's good to have a man of your calibre, whatever anyone thinks of your online persona, pretty much agreeing. I think, that's what makes this thread more appealing, unique. Shifting the focus to that long term build rather than the 12-16 week build. Only to do it all over. Seems madness to me, looking back how I've trained before. I took sirpoc advice and bought your book, I am a way in and I think a lot of what you talk about whilst power and cycling based, you would probably approve of how he's adapted, as best he can with the more basic tools runners have. It also made me realise how much we are crying out for power, on a usable and widespread scale. Anyway, I would recommend Andrew's book to others, if you are interested in what's under the surface of sirpoc 's training program.

Btw, congrats to the man himself, 15:17 yesterday on yet another sub optimal 5k route. Surely sub 15 is coming soon?

Been quite the 18 months since this 👏👏👏

Meanwhile I've been injured almost that entire time 🤦‍♂️

To clarify: injuries that preceded this thread/training methodology - hoping to finally give it a fair shot soon.

Sirpoc is such a pessimist!