Running consists of several different events, not one event, so to be the best runner you have to succeed at as many different distances as possible.
Wrong. While the sport consists of several different events the best runners are those who are the best at their event not those who run the most events.
Correct, the best runners are not those who just run the most events, it's the one who excels at the most events. You are not the best at the sport if you can only succeed at a very small part of it. According to your logic the best chef in the world is the person who makes the best spaghetti carbonara but can't cook anything else.
Not really. Jakob started it with the inane "just the next guy" comment
"Just the next guy" means that each year there is a new guy who steps up to try and dethrone Jakob. Sometimes it works (Wightman and Kerr succeeded) but mostly it is futile. Jakob wins a lot.
The point is that each year there is a "new guy" who challenges Jakob. But there is always Jakob. He is the the constant.
p.s. I think his cockiness is annoying but entertaining. And it isn't like he's running for political office, so who cares! It makes our sport way more fun.
As Dumb has realised during this thread there never can be an ultimate answer to such questions. It's highly subjective.
Now he again thinks to have the ultimate truth.
For sure someone can rank a runner who was amongst the best at a variety of distances above someone who dominated a single event without success at other distances.
The only distance runner who really can't be questioned to be number one in his event is El Guerrouj (no one is close) in the 1500m/Mile. So, for Dumb he is te GOAT distance runner. For me Bekele and Gebrselassie are ahead. Others might vote for Kipchoge or maybe even Rudisha? Zatopek? Nurmi? Who ultimately want's to decide who is right and who is wrong? Only someone like Dumbstrong.
As usual, completely unaware you're doing what you accuse me of. You think you can decide for a fact who is the best, by continuing to argue the best generalist is superior to the best specialist. Since the former is not as good as the latter at their event you are of course wrong. But you should be used to that.
For sure not, Dumb.
How often do you give a reply without even reading the post?
I say there never can be a clear measure for such questions. You got it now, Dumb? I'm pretty sure: no.
I've not argued with just a single sentence for what you claim here - dumb liar.
With your definition there is only one candidate for GOAT distance runner: El Guerrouj.
I would rank Bekele and Gebrselassie ahead of him. No problem if someone (like you, Dumb) has El Guerrouj as his number one.
A question doesn't put him closer to being GOAT. What an observation - a pure armdumb.
Armdumb questioned those two points:
- Ingebrigtsen is the best 22 years old from 1500m to 5k
- Ingebrigtsen is among the top ten at age 22 in distance running
When pressed to just give some names (which he can't) - he comes up with such an observation.
That's his way of discussing something: before admitting to be wrong he changes the subject. Always.
I said it is an irrelevant question in the context of the subject of whether Jakob will be the GOAT. I should have added it is a stupid question. There is no point in debating it. But as I said, there are runners who have been better than Jakob over either the 1500 or the 5000 - which makes them better than him.
You answered the question already several times: no, for you Ingebrigtsen is not the best at age 22 from 1500m to 5k.
Just when asked to give a single name of someone who has done better (you can't give a single name) the question becomes stupid for you.
Before admitting to be wrong on something you change the subject. We have seen this unbelievable behaviour again and again. From a close to 80 years old man who has followed athletics closely since over 6 decades (and recently already has learned how to write times correctly).
Wrong. While the sport consists of several different events the best runners are those who are the best at their event not those who run the most events.
Correct, the best runners are not those who just run the most events, it's the one who excels at the most events. You are not the best at the sport if you can only succeed at a very small part of it. According to your logic the best chef in the world is the person who makes the best spaghetti carbonara but can't cook anything else.
What a stupid analogy. It has nothing to do with my "logic". I might just as well say the best rocket scientist in the world - which is analogous to a runner who is a specialist - does not also have to be a surgeon or a lawyer. So how many "dishes" does Bolt have to serve beside being the fastest man on the planet over just two distances? Some "chef". He is also a runner as much as any you care to describe and there is arguably none greater. But the reality you haven't grasped is that the best runners are specialists - like sprinters, one lap runners (a hurdler like Ed Moses), 800m specialists like Rudisha and Kipketer, and 1500/mile specialists like Elliott and El G. Distance runners, who run the 5k and 10k and maybe the marathon aren't superior athletes, it is that their set of skills are suited to the more aerobic events. They certainly would have no success at the shorter events against the specialists. In that sense, they are quite limited as runners. Schoolboys could beat them away from their best events.
Not really. Jakob started it with the inane "just the next guy" comment
"Just the next guy" means that each year there is a new guy who steps up to try and dethrone Jakob. Sometimes it works (Wightman and Kerr succeeded) but mostly it is futile. Jakob wins a lot.
The point is that each year there is a "new guy" who challenges Jakob. But there is always Jakob. He is the the constant.
p.s. I think his cockiness is annoying but entertaining. And it isn't like he's running for political office, so who cares! It makes our sport way more fun.
Jakob might be the constant, but the variation is that he loses championship finals in his best event. Not quite GOAT material.
As usual, completely unaware you're doing what you accuse me of. You think you can decide for a fact who is the best, by continuing to argue the best generalist is superior to the best specialist. Since the former is not as good as the latter at their event you are of course wrong. But you should be used to that.
For sure not, Dumb.
How often do you give a reply without even reading the post?
I say there never can be a clear measure for such questions. You got it now, Dumb? I'm pretty sure: no.
I've not argued with just a single sentence for what you claim here - dumb liar.
With your definition there is only one candidate for GOAT distance runner: El Guerrouj.
I would rank Bekele and Gebrselassie ahead of him. No problem if someone (like you, Dumb) has El Guerrouj as his number one.
If there is no "clear measure" then you have wasted most of the thread saying nothing.
Not his best event, his favorite event. Anyone with 2 ounces of reasoning knows that he is actually best at least around 5000m. He has even said it himself in interviews.
I said it is an irrelevant question in the context of the subject of whether Jakob will be the GOAT. I should have added it is a stupid question. There is no point in debating it. But as I said, there are runners who have been better than Jakob over either the 1500 or the 5000 - which makes them better than him.
You answered the question already several times: no, for you Ingebrigtsen is not the best at age 22 from 1500m to 5k.
Just when asked to give a single name of someone who has done better (you can't give a single name) the question becomes stupid for you.
Before admitting to be wrong on something you change the subject. We have seen this unbelievable behaviour again and again. From a close to 80 years old man who has followed athletics closely since over 6 decades (and recently already has learned how to write times correctly).
I didn't say what you claim. I have indicated it is an arbitrary and misplaced measure of where he stands in the history of the sport. Hence I said Elliott, as a 1500m specialist, was a greater runner at the same age as Jakob. And he will still likely be greater than Jakob when the Norwegian's career is over, because Jakob won't retire undefeated over his best distance, as Elliott did.
Since you have also said there can be "no clear measure" of what constitutes greatness then you are in no position to dispute what I say. You're the "hobby jogger" of posters here.
Not his best event, his favorite event. Anyone with 2 ounces of reasoning knows that he is actually best at least around 5000m. He has even said it himself in interviews.
If the 5k is his best event then he will never be the GOAT. No Olympic title and a country mile from the world record. What he says himself is hot air. Like winning championship races "blindfolded".
Not his best event, his favorite event. Anyone with 2 ounces of reasoning knows that he is actually best at least around 5000m. He has even said it himself in interviews.
Correct, the best runners are not those who just run the most events, it's the one who excels at the most events. You are not the best at the sport if you can only succeed at a very small part of it. According to your logic the best chef in the world is the person who makes the best spaghetti carbonara but can't cook anything else.
What a stupid analogy. It has nothing to do with my "logic". I might just as well say the best rocket scientist in the world - which is analogous to a runner who is a specialist - does not also have to be a surgeon or a lawyer. So how many "dishes" does Bolt have to serve beside being the fastest man on the planet over just two distances? Some "chef". He is also a runner as much as any you care to describe and there is arguably none greater. But the reality you haven't grasped is that the best runners are specialists - like sprinters, one lap runners (a hurdler like Ed Moses), 800m specialists like Rudisha and Kipketer, and 1500/mile specialists like Elliott and El G. Distance runners, who run the 5k and 10k and maybe the marathon aren't superior athletes, it is that their set of skills are suited to the more aerobic events. They certainly would have no success at the shorter events against the specialists. In that sense, they are quite limited as runners. Schoolboys could beat them away from their best events.
Nope, that's what your logic is. Cooking consists of more than one dish, running consists of more than one event. Being a surgeon or a lawyer has very little in common with being a rocket scientist. Bolt doesn't have to do anything else to be the best sprinter on the planet, but to be the best runner overall he has to be able to run more than 400m without passing out. I haven't disagreed that you most often than not have to be a specialist to be the best at one event.
Is the best player in the NBA the person who's the best at dunking but can't pass, shoot or rebound? Or is it the person who excels at as many different aspects of playing basketball as possible?
I agree in everything you are saying in this post, except how you estimate Jakob’s half marathon capacity…
Just for the records: Me being a fan of the Ingebrigtsens / the Norwegian means only that I’m a fan of their training / racing project, and some of their views on training and racing. I (like you I suppose) want to see how their philosophy manifests it self in times and achievements throughout the years -I really think they have found something revolutionary, and I think it’s the training more than talent. And as a Norwegian it’s especially interesting to watch how a awkwardly small country all of a sudden has two candidates to the price “athlete of the year” (Warholm / Ingebrigtsen) year after year…
I like outliers and special features in athletics, and therefore both Ingebrigtsen and Nordås. But I also really liked what Hassan has been doing -how she fell from a medal, and just smiled. And took the blame her self (didn’t run straight). And how Gidey supported her afterwards. And that Tsegay stood (ran) on her rights. And how Cheptegei and Gidey and even Bekele (once) dared to hit the wall in xc. And that Kipyegon said she was a little embarrassed that Gidey had to do all the work in the former’s 5000m WR race. And that Tsegay eventually got her WR (5000m) after years of tough openings in the 1500m.. And so on and so on.. And I would love to have McSweyn winning a championship with the fastest home stretch, just to show it’s all about the strength!
I agree in your estimate of Jakob sub 12.40 -there’s so many races and indications for this. And I think such an estimate aligns with parameters from testing and training and lactate readings. But to extend this to predict 10000m and half marathon times seems too much of a stretch. Because there are some strong indications that Jakob may be a really (of course relatively) poor both 10000m and half marathon runner:
1. Jakob has never raced any really good distance runners over 6, 8 or 10k (xc, road or track) or above!
2. In 2019 Jakob probably could have run 12.55 or faster (did 13.02 twice). But in his two longer runs he flopped grossly: 27.54 road 10 k, and 8 km WC U20: placed 12th against totally unmerited runners (47 sec behind guys with 13.30 and 28-+ pr’s that season, or f.ex 61+ half marathon). He was totally destroyed by guys 2 min away from the WR in the 10000m; athletes who weren’t good enough for the senior ranks…!
3. I think Jakob has a vision about how training and racing and progression should be when it comes to himself. And when this vision seems to collide with reality he seems to think he can fix the whole thing with small adjustments (f.ex admitting that a marathon WR is something he isn’t sure of; only that he is going to try to break it… But no admission about the rest of the events)…
Maybe an athlete theoretically can have the WR in both the 1500m and the (half) marathon. But maybe this is more determined by genes than by training than Jakob thinks..?
4. Jakob reminds me of Cheptegei -a playfulness and (maybe) an overestimation of own abilities: The latter runs nearly 2 min behind the WR in the half, and in the full marathon he hits the wall, and can’t even walk afterwards without assistance (Pretty much like Jakob after some of his races!).
5. You mentioned his 8k childhood race -good of course, but no reason to think he was better here than in the 5k’s at the same time (that he ran fast in courses of 200m + elevation)… Jakob has surprised me a lot of times. And I hope he does this again in the longer runs. In some surroundings he can be extremely strong - you mentioned the Nationals in 2017 (Jakob 16). In the 5000m he toyed with 13.20 runner Moen. And this despite he the day before pr’ed in the 800m (somewhere in central Europe -nearly won the race)…
I don’t know if the ability to recover super fast says something about 10k / half marathon capacity. And even Jakob is human -in the 2023 Bowerman 3000m he clearly wasn’t fully recovered… But I really hope he dusts all my predictions opposed to yours here. -Personally I think there’s a stronger possibility for Jakob to really crush some WR’s 1500-5000m, than to even run decent in the 10k and +…
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
Not his best event, his favorite event. Anyone with 2 ounces of reasoning knows that he is actually best at least around 5000m. He has even said it himself in interviews.
The supposed expert didn't even know this.
It isn't his best event. It's more hot air. Like his claim he will be the GOAT.