I think some of this analysis is right, especially the part about young artists trying to navigate the consequences and intentions of their own subversive art.
However, what I think you miss is that this camp in no way seems some sort of art camp. It's actually about content, which isn't really art. It can be, but certainly not always. These aren't art school kids trying to make portfolios for grad school; they're young photographers at a malleable age trying to think about what they want to do, and how they want to portray themselves and others.
The problem isn't that some "uneducated puritans" pushed back at the "art" of some kids. It's that a genuine criticism was made (even if it was made in a way that people didn't like, or by someone people don't like), and the response to it was absolutely awful. Homophobic comments. Burner accounts. An apology that was taken down.
If this really was art, I would've appreciated the adults in the room to stand by it, subversive as it may or may not be. That would've at least been interesting! But no adults have done anything, really. And I feel bad for the kids involved, even the one who took the original photos.
And yes, it's been terrible to see accusations being made that run the gamut from minor (being a creep) to major (pedophilia). That's awful to read, especially if they come from an unsubstantiated place.
All that to say, the adults in the room are the ones who messed this up, not the kids. Kids can and should make art. They can and should make mistakes. But all they are learning from this is how not to receive criticism. And they are now being given license to explore more toxic traits, like hiding behind fake accounts, like answering criticism with personal attacks. You can be subversive without being awful. I don't know if people know that, but it's true. You can also be subversive and kind. I wish they had been taught that. It doesn't seem like they were.
20 pages in and these 2 posts finally hit the nail on the head,
these combined are probably the best interpretation of events
Nope. 'you just don't understand art' followed by a post that handwrings over creepy dudes being called creepy, are not it. These kinds of photos, which are degrading, and are violent, are extremely concerning coming out of a HIGH SCHOOL RUNNING CAMP. The photos were not just posted by the kids but by the OFFICIAL NewGen instagram. That shows an extreme lack of judgement by the adults involved that IS creepy. It shows a lack of boundaries. It shows a lack of understanding what is appropriate, by adults who are meant to supervise kids under their care.
It could actually affect these kids in the future; for coaches, employers, sponsors, etc, to find photos of them doing this. None of the above want to see the person they are scholarshipping/hiring/sponsoring with their face in a toilet, shoving someone's face in a toilet, or guy shoving a girl half the size of him in a locker by her hair. Harm has already been done to these kids by this situation occurring and Newgen promoted it and cosigned it at the least.
I really think a lot of you have a limited understanding or appreciation for norms in the arts/creative fields. Many posters and viewers here are likely much more comfortable with strictly running content and whatever professional fields you may be involved with. But if you spend any time with artists, writers, comedians, etc. you would know that an idea/shoot like this is about as vanilla as an ”edgy” project will come. Obviously some of the comments were offensive but no one can legitimately lay that at the feet of the newgen founders.
So as for the photo shoot, which is all you can pin in them, you all really need to stop the pearl clutching. Saying that it’s so obviously offensive and merits an apology just makes it seem that you’ve never read/watched/consumed any media or art willing to push the slightest boundaries. There’s a whole genre of satirical art that presents far more disturbing ideas and visuals that requires you to think beyond your initial reaction/repulsion. To use examples you philistines probably know - do you think American Psycho glamorizes murder and assault? Does Lolita glamorize molestation? Or do they just use these shocking elements for some other purpose? It seems clear that the campers had the idea for or wanted to do this photo shoot. It is pretty obvious what references/inspirations they had for the photos. Some of your reactions imply that you're literally taking everything at face value to a degree that's shocking.
In all honesty, and perhaps a complicating factor, the photos aren’t very good! And that’s probably because most art made by 17/18 year olds isn’t that good. But the absolute worst thing for them to learn is that the consequences for trying a slightly subversive idea is the viscous condemnation from a bunch of uneducated puritans online. If you showed this at an art school, you’d hear plenty of critique over the execution of the idea but you wouldn’t be told that you should be banned from ever taking photos again. There’s obviously a massive disconnect between what many in the running world are ready to accept and understand and what would be totally non-controversial among the majority those who actually care about or understand contemporary art. By my estimation, that was one of the aims of New Generation in the first place. Something that I, for one, always thought was a good and worthwhile idea. It seems that a lot of you don’t want that sort of change. But if those involved in this can’t find creative freedom in the running world, I hope they won’t let this incident turn them away from art more broadly.
It's certainly possible. It's also possible you aren't very good at determining constitutes good work.
I don’t disagree with any of your criticism related to the project being shallow, the influences being muddled (still, clearly based on previous teen movies and tv), and their responses being unsophisticated. My point was that’s completely understandable when artists of this age start trying new things. And it’s also totally normal for young artists to want to deal with difficult subject matter but be completely clumsy in the execution. Of course they’re not Nabokov or BEE, no one thinks they are. But this is how exploration ought to begin. The fact that the photog and models were all friends is about the safest way to do a project like this - much better than hiring people to pose or soliciting classmates who don’t have any input etc.
And regarding this derogatory comments left by some of the kids - obviously that’s horrible. But I truly don’t think that can be blamed on the counselors. These kids are probably assholes online year round - their parents or teachers are much more “responsible” for them acting this way. Unless you believe that these kids learned all of their social instincts from this 7 day camp.
My take is still that new gen was providing a pretty permissive platform for them to pursue their own artistic projects and that’s good. It’s not the job of art mentors to police content. They tried something and it largely failed. But the extent of some of the criticism on this site and on instagram goes well beyond pointing this out. Their failure does not go nearly as far as many seem to want it to.
My take is still that new gen was providing a pretty permissive platform for them to pursue their own artistic projects and that’s good. It’s not the job of art mentors to police content. They tried something and it largely failed. But the extent of some of the criticism on this site and on instagram goes well beyond pointing this out. Their failure does not go nearly as far as many seem to want it to.
I think we have a difference of opinion on what constitutes a worthwhile, healthy, or educational program for young artists. It's not the job of art mentors to police content, but it is their job to actually mentor young creators and provide thoughtful guidance. That's partially just good business strategy; if you're going to make part of your livelihood from running a camp for kids, you should be providing enough educational value and workshopping for it to be worthwhile. I also think it's part of your responsibility to your artistic community. You should be providing meaningful guidance and constructive critique to the next generation in your field, not merely a platform.
And again, part of this has to do with the context of the camp being an On-sponsored program. NG says they have no boundaries, but once you sign a contract with a corporate sponsor, you should have the common sense to know that some boundaries probably do apply. You can save the more experimental/edgy/subversive work for self-funded projects.
I do genuinely hope that this doesn't limit the campers opportunities in the future, and that they're learning from all this. My critique is primarily for the adults who purported to run a camp for young artists and then dropped the ball in multiple ways.
Hiding predatory or inappropriate behavior behind “art” or “creative expression” is a tale as old as time. in so many industries. sport is no exception. This is like early years Terry Richardson.
These kids and excuses for adult men may not be predators rn, but the reaction to being called out makes it seem like they could be on their way. Otherwise, why not take a beat, step back and simply try to listen and understand what’s not ok here? Instead, they double down. Fragile egos and immaturity, man.
Right, tell that to your future employers when you conduct yourselves poorly “we’re just people with thoughts and feelings.” Also Marketing 101, when you provoke negative feelings to your audience and receive backlash, you learn from it, own it and for God sake don’t turn it around and say “but Emma should’ve privately messaged us!” Change happens when people collectively pushback or push for something they believe in and in this case, you all dropped the shoe on this one.
Dumbest sh*t I've ever read. Most people saw the photos and moved on with their lives. The "audience" wasn't offended. It's a small number of people. Same type that flips out on twitter over dumb stuff. Very small % of the user base but very very very disproportionately loud.
‘Creative arts’, huh? Not exactly Annie Liebovitz or Walker Evans. More like a stunted child’s philistine vision, born out of insecurity and lack of real education.
I really think a lot of you have a limited understanding or appreciation for norms in the arts/creative fields. Many posters and viewers here are likely much more comfortable with strictly running content and whatever professional fields you may be involved with. But if you spend any time with artists, writers, comedians, etc. you would know that an idea/shoot like this is about as vanilla as an ”edgy” project will come. Obviously some of the comments were offensive but no one can legitimately lay that at the feet of the newgen founders.
So as for the photo shoot, which is all you can pin in them, you all really need to stop the pearl clutching. Saying that it’s so obviously offensive and merits an apology just makes it seem that you’ve never read/watched/consumed any media or art willing to push the slightest boundaries. There’s a whole genre of satirical art that presents far more disturbing ideas and visuals that requires you to think beyond your initial reaction/repulsion. To use examples you philistines probably know - do you think American Psycho glamorizes murder and assault? Does Lolita glamorize molestation? Or do they just use these shocking elements for some other purpose? It seems clear that the campers had the idea for or wanted to do this photo shoot. It is pretty obvious what references/inspirations they had for the photos. Some of your reactions imply that you're literally taking everything at face value to a degree that's shocking.
In all honesty, and perhaps a complicating factor, the photos aren’t very good! And that’s probably because most art made by 17/18 year olds isn’t that good. But the absolute worst thing for them to learn is that the consequences for trying a slightly subversive idea is the viscous condemnation from a bunch of uneducated puritans online. If you showed this at an art school, you’d hear plenty of critique over the execution of the idea but you wouldn’t be told that you should be banned from ever taking photos again. There’s obviously a massive disconnect between what many in the running world are ready to accept and understand and what would be totally non-controversial among the majority those who actually care about or understand contemporary art. By my estimation, that was one of the aims of New Generation in the first place. Something that I, for one, always thought was a good and worthwhile idea. It seems that a lot of you don’t want that sort of change. But if those involved in this can’t find creative freedom in the running world, I hope they won’t let this incident turn them away from art more broadly.
Yes, thank you! Imagine if every artist took it personally whenever the pearl clutchers came after them. There would be almost no good art! There would be no horror movies, no crime dramas, no action films, no gothic style paintings. As Hollywood (especially Disney right now) is showing us, trying to sanitize art and pander it to the most sensitive and politically correct is not a good recipe for creative work.
I also don't quite understand why people are trying to read so much into the pictures either or analyzing the "message" it sends. I don't think there was much meaning behind it at all, it was probably more about the aesthetic appeal, which is consistent with New Gen's postmodern style that is popular among young people these days. This just seems like a mob of angry pearl clutchers trying to find witches to burn.
Right, tell that to your future employers when you conduct yourselves poorly “we’re just people with thoughts and feelings.” Also Marketing 101, when you provoke negative feelings to your audience and receive backlash, you learn from it, own it and for God sake don’t turn it around and say “but Emma should’ve privately messaged us!” Change happens when people collectively pushback or push for something they believe in and in this case, you all dropped the shoe on this one.
Dumbest sh*t I've ever read. Most people saw the photos and moved on with their lives. The "audience" wasn't offended. It's a small number of people. Same type that flips out on twitter over dumb stuff. Very small % of the user base but very very very disproportionately loud.
Have you ever heard of a google search filter to weed out questionable applicants based on their online presence? Most people probably did move on with their lives but it’s already been pointed out on this thread that Jordan Donnelly at On didn’t just “move on” with his life. Brands won’t be willing to sweep this under the rug as easily as you think
Right, tell that to your future employers when you conduct yourselves poorly “we’re just people with thoughts and feelings.” Also Marketing 101, when you provoke negative feelings to your audience and receive backlash, you learn from it, own it and for God sake don’t turn it around and say “but Emma should’ve privately messaged us!” Change happens when people collectively pushback or push for something they believe in and in this case, you all dropped the shoe on this one.
Dumbest sh*t I've ever read. Most people saw the photos and moved on with their lives. The "audience" wasn't offended. It's a small number of people. Same type that flips out on twitter over dumb stuff. Very small % of the user base but very very very disproportionately loud.
“Most people saw the photos and moved on with their lives.”
Lol maybe not the strongest argument to make on page 21 of a letsrun message board about “the photos.” Guess Emma isn’t the only one who cares, dawg.
Agree. And I also the irony of runners as being in photoshoots as the “cool kids” kinda makes me laugh. Kinda makes me wonder what these kids are like in school actually
Not a top national runner but I was popular in HS and most of the top guys on our team over the years were, not everyone was dorky and weird in running
Popular enough to be posting on letsrun about how popular u were in hs. Lol
I really think a lot of you have a limited understanding or appreciation for norms in the arts/creative fields. Many posters and viewers here are likely much more comfortable with strictly running content and whatever professional fields you may be involved with. But if you spend any time with artists, writers, comedians, etc. you would know that an idea/shoot like this is about as vanilla as an ”edgy” project will come. Obviously some of the comments were offensive but no one can legitimately lay that at the feet of the newgen founders.
So as for the photo shoot, which is all you can pin in them, you all really need to stop the pearl clutching. Saying that it’s so obviously offensive and merits an apology just makes it seem that you’ve never read/watched/consumed any media or art willing to push the slightest boundaries. There’s a whole genre of satirical art that presents far more disturbing ideas and visuals that requires you to think beyond your initial reaction/repulsion. To use examples you philistines probably know - do you think American Psycho glamorizes murder and assault? Does Lolita glamorize molestation? Or do they just use these shocking elements for some other purpose? It seems clear that the campers had the idea for or wanted to do this photo shoot. It is pretty obvious what references/inspirations they had for the photos. Some of your reactions imply that you're literally taking everything at face value to a degree that's shocking.
In all honesty, and perhaps a complicating factor, the photos aren’t very good! And that’s probably because most art made by 17/18 year olds isn’t that good. But the absolute worst thing for them to learn is that the consequences for trying a slightly subversive idea is the viscous condemnation from a bunch of uneducated puritans online. If you showed this at an art school, you’d hear plenty of critique over the execution of the idea but you wouldn’t be told that you should be banned from ever taking photos again. There’s obviously a massive disconnect between what many in the running world are ready to accept and understand and what would be totally non-controversial among the majority those who actually care about or understand contemporary art. By my estimation, that was one of the aims of New Generation in the first place. Something that I, for one, always thought was a good and worthwhile idea. It seems that a lot of you don’t want that sort of change. But if those involved in this can’t find creative freedom in the running world, I hope they won’t let this incident turn them away from art more broadly.
Yes, thank you! Imagine if every artist took it personally whenever the pearl clutchers came after them. There would be almost no good art! There would be no horror movies, no crime dramas, no action films, no gothic style paintings. As Hollywood (especially Disney right now) is showing us, trying to sanitize art and pander it to the most sensitive and politically correct is not a good recipe for creative work.
I also don't quite understand why people are trying to read so much into the pictures either or analyzing the "message" it sends. I don't think there was much meaning behind it at all, it was probably more about the aesthetic appeal, which is consistent with New Gen's postmodern style that is popular among young people these days. This just seems like a mob of angry pearl clutchers trying to find witches to burn.
New Gen: Aesthetically pleasing postmodern y2k bullying photography
This will likely never happen, but I would love to hear from either the New Gen people or the camper who posted,
How or if they felt empowered as they did the modeling for this shoot?
How did the new Gen people ensure everyone was ok with the set ups? Professional modeling and photographers now do specific things to make sure everyone is OK in sensitive shoots like this and goes beyond, "hey this seems fun!"
The photos are about power, and in order to take them they had to pose in those positions. Even in jest, why did they choose those poses?
A true artist would be able to thoughtfully answer those questions. It's concerning that these pics become part of the kids portfolio of work, and any other professional will ask similar questions and the answer is a shruggie, idk, and defensiveness?
Yikes. it really could harm them.
How about the dang boy runner shoving the girl in the locker with the gaze on his face!?
You think he got good mentorship from new gen being the poster boy from this controversy?
“How was camp son? Did you have a good time?”
“Hey dad, they took a pic of me shoving a girls lifeless body in a locker and it’s all over the internet.”
”they did what?”
No, I don't think he did! And you are right, this is question I'd also live to have answered!