I just read Running With the Buffaloes- Here's my "Hot Take"

100% correct. Courses vary significantly. Rim Rock is a beatdown: thick grass (and usually wet), poor footing on the backside, and constant hills. It’s not some Stanford golf course or manicured trail. OkSt’s old course was the same way.

But how would Abdi fare in the modern era?

Measuring with gps all depends on the equipment. Using affordable stuff like we are used to like Garmin or whatever is not going to be accurate. An accurately calibrated wheel would be better. But survey grade gps is absolutely spot on down to hairsplitting accuracy. Only problem is that survey grade equipment is VERY expensive

mwh wrote:

But how would Abdi fare in the modern era?

Beat me to it!

Back then they had to step one foot in front of the other for 8,000 meters to measure the course!

GBohannon wrote:

Let’s look at some track credentials for their top 5 at NCAA XC.

Goucher - obvious

Friedberg - 14:01/28:52

Roybal - 3:44/13:42

Reese - 3:43/14:03/8:42 steeple

Batliner - 7:58/13:49/8:38 steeple

Not a bad group.

Whenever looking at PRs from that era, you have to point out that set up races were all but non existent. Many of the 3:43, 13:52 type PRs came in conference races or just a low key invite where the winners all did a lot of the work.

Batliner’s 7:58 was a race at the old BU where he and Goucher traded off the lead and 3rd place was like 8:10. Typically a 13:45 race back then was super hard to come by as opposed to nowadays where you might get it in heat3 at Stanford.

And this is why a properly tensioned steel tape is the best way to measure a cross country course.

mwh wrote:

But how would Abdi fare in the modern era?

Nice one.

My “Running With the Buffaloes” hot take is that the book itself is sloppily written / edited and boring as all hell.

There, I said it.

Adam Goucher...at any friggin' weight, would have beaten the crap out of 99.999999% of "runners" here on this now, pathetic web site/"forum".

skin and boners wrote:

Adam Goucher...at any friggin' weight, would have beaten the crap out of 99.999999% of "runners" here on this now, pathetic web site/"forum".

Could say same about Armstrong vs bikers on a biking website. Everything Goucher(s) is tainted by Dr. Brown stuff, which goes back to before NOP/Salazar, yet they tried to hang Dr. Brown on Salazar.

Someone posted a video recently and while I think Goucher could have ran with the top guys it’s clear that the rest of men’s running was far behind. One clear example to me is the d2 times ran that very same day. Goucher was good but his time was 2 minutes faster than the d2 winner. No way in hell today’s d1 champ would finish even a minute faster than the top d2 guy.

Yeah, no question Goucher would be mixing it up for the win most years, but it's incredible how far the depth in the NCAA has come since then. 40 participants ran under 30 minutes at NCAA XC in 2018, vs. 2 in 1998. Granted the course in Madison is faster, but folks managed to run fast even with snow on the ground. I'm a little skeptical that the Rim Rock course runs at least a minute slow, as suggested by other posters. Would Goucher really have run 28:26 on the Madison course? I know he was good, but somehow that still seems unlikely.

You have to understand how serious that old 10k course at Rim Rock was. I didn’t remember what times they ran until I watched that video - holy crap. Also note - times from the 8k they run there most of the time now are faster since they have a flat version of the course that only has a couple of hills and avoids all the nasty parts of the original course. That old 10k course is AT LEAST a minute slower than Wisco

The Reeves Law Group wrote:

Runner10287 wrote:

The book gives the behinds look to what it takes to win an NCAA title. Goucher had all the talent yet still had to train at a borderline dangerous level while severely limiting his caloric intake. He came across as a huge JO but that's what it takes at that level to an extent.

I've always felt that he sold his long term potential with the way he training that fall. His pro career was a roller coaster of injuries with intermittent periods of good health where we ran some fast times.

how was his training more difficult than what people these days are doing?

Mileage wise not much. The density and intensity though. They were almost racing their long runs and the excessive hammering of the Wednesday medium distance runs. Everything in singles and not breaking up easy days into doubles. I mean he almost ran that 22 miler at a full marathon effort.

Dregon Ucks wrote:

GBohannon wrote:

Let’s look at some track credentials for their top 5 at NCAA XC.

Goucher - obvious

Friedberg - 14:01/28:52

Roybal - 3:44/13:42

Reese - 3:43/14:03/8:42 steeple

Batliner - 7:58/13:49/8:38 steeple

Not a bad group.

Whenever looking at PRs from that era, you have to point out that set up races were all but non existent. Many of the 3:43, 13:52 type PRs came in conference races or just a low key invite where the winners all did a lot of the work.

Batliner’s 7:58 was a race at the old BU where he and Goucher traded off the lead and 3rd place was like 8:10. Typically a 13:45 race back then was super hard to come by as opposed to nowadays where you might get it in heat3 at Stanford.

Collegiate track will resemble that era again with coronavirus budget cuts restricting teams from traveling for these set up time trials. Back to basics.

I know they still do hard long runs but its not an every week occurrence like in the book. Maybe once a month and it's more of a progression run effort.

I feel like if they slowed down a little on some of their easy days, they would have been less beaten up by the end of the season.

Buffaloessszzz wrote:

I know they still do hard long runs but its not an every week occurrence like in the book. Maybe once a month and it's more of a progression run effort.

I feel like if they slowed down a little on some of their easy days, they would have been less beaten up by the end of the season.

Having re-read the book a few times I have often wondered how they would have fared if the load was lightened enough that they arrived at Nationals healthier.

Dregon Ucks wrote:

GBohannon wrote:

Let’s look at some track credentials for their top 5 at NCAA XC.

Goucher - obvious

Friedberg - 14:01/28:52

Roybal - 3:44/13:42

Reese - 3:43/14:03/8:42 steeple

Batliner - 7:58/13:49/8:38 steeple

Not a bad group.

Whenever looking at PRs from that era, you have to point out that set up races were all but non existent. Many of the 3:43, 13:52 type PRs came in conference races or just a low key invite where the winners all did a lot of the work.

Batliner’s 7:58 was a race at the old BU where he and Goucher traded off the lead and 3rd place was like 8:10. Typically a 13:45 race back then was super hard to come by as opposed to nowadays where you might get it in heat3 at Stanford.

Uhhhh.... Ever hear of the Stanford Invite??? Ever hear of Mt Sac???