All you Paula haters - leave humble pie here

If we could ressurect all the great marathoners and put them all in the same race, who would win?

Who has the fastest time ;-)

So, then ... who is the greatest female marathoner of all-time and why?

Martin

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In reply to Martin, I really don't see why you have such a big problem with Foster? I agree he is not the greatest commentator, but he is the only one in the box who actually has some knowledge of distnace running beyond 1500, I think he is very good when he is brought into the studio to discuss whats happened or about to happen but his spur of the moment delivery is not so good. In terms of the BBC considering his position, I would recommend they look at Gunnell first, not only is she plainly stupid she is also useless, Sue Barker is the worst anchorwoman/man I have ever seen on the BBC, absoloutely atrocious, and why does she always look like she has been to a job interview or dinner date? Jackson is turning into a camp luvvie, expect to see him soon on supermarket sweep, he offers very very little. Johnson is excellent but appears embarassed when Sue asks for his expert opinion on the 10k or the marathon, and rightly so. Edwards is pretty good.

As for Cram, he seems to be getting a lot of plaudits and seems to be trying to reinvent himself as some kind of intellectual commentator on the sport via the Guardian/BBC, he's actually not very knowledgable and is found out when anybody other than a household name appears, likewise Foster has problems with anybody outside the usual 'circle' of faces, Cram though is more eloquent in the commentary box. This is because they do not have a genuine interest in the sport from the grassroots up, they never attend grass roots races, have no idea of the sport at the sub elite level and this has a knock on affect as far as their knowledge is concerned, with genuine fans shocked by their lack of knowledge. However they are commentating for the masses, they are not commenatting for the 200/300 hardcore who are represented on letsrun, you need to remember that.

Foster is a very very intelligent man, academically very gifted aswell as being very business savy. Cram is not on the same level, though seems to think he is, I believe he has a strong wish to become involved politically initially in the sport and eventually in govt. He seems to suffer badly from no longer being a 'celebrity', maybe its a midlife crisis?

I watched all of the Worlds on British Eurosport.

Tim Hutchings et al are soooo much better!

IMO, its a very hard question to answer. Much harder than the male equivalent or indeed any other distance.

Why? Because the marathon only became a world event in 1983. The first 10000 Oly for women was held in 88 only.

What does this mean? it means the pioneers, Grete, Rosa Mota, Ingrid, Joannie and co. ran their races in an era when marathon were only just becoming accessible. Through their teenage yrs and early 20s they didnt see the marathon (or long distance) as an option so didnt have the necessary base when it finally became possible to move up to the distance. It was a huge step up from what they were previously allowed run. The equivalent today would be the IAAF announcing a 100mile race in the next World Champs.

Todays runners do not have that excuse. The marathon was always going to be PR's best event and so she structured her career towards it. Her generation is the first to be able to do that. Even the likes of McColgan would have hampered by the mysogonist iaaf in her early days.

The marathon has only been a 'true global event' for about 15yrs. Taking this into a/c i think the originals can be excused some of their slower times. For certain male pacers would not have been supplied for these girls nor any pacers if i remember correctly.

I lean towards a quartet of Grete, Ingrid, Paula and Ndereba in no particular order. If Grete & Ingrid had PR backup, opportunities, support & finance they would have been 2'18 girls at least.

Ingrid was paced in her WR in London i think by Mick McGeogh. Unfortunatley he couldn't keep up!

The quote in the subject field is a reference to Brian Moore, the ITV football legend, who never used 10 words when he could by with only using two. It's a lesson that Foster has simply never absorbed.

I remember watching the Sydney 10,000 final on Eurosport one Christmas (they often show highlights during the holiday season). During the slow-motions shots of the last 200 metres, Tim Hutchings said "Let's just watch" and went silent. The viewer was left with the incredible images of Tergat verus Geb, man against man. It was spine-chilling.

Compare that to Foster's verbal dioarrhea: how many times do you hear him repeat "men's 10,000 met-tas"? How many times does simply contine to talk when the images need no explaination? Go back to your tape (if you have one ) of the Sydney 10,000 and see what I mean.

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The rest of your post I would broadly agree with: Gunnel is terrible (but better than Jon Regis used to be); Barker is anodyne but plays well to the middle England view (which, as you rightly note, is who the broadcast is aimed at); Edwards, Storey and Dickenson are great.

Cram is very good, in my book, and doesn't try to overtake the coverage -- unlike, say, McEnroe during Wimbledon, he doesn't constantly refer to the "good old days" or reminisce about how he once ran 3:33 in Berlin on a cold night in August.

Foster has too many conflicts of interest to be working for a publicly-funded broadcaster (the fact that he can plug the GNR is a disgrace) and simply isn't skilled enough to cover events beyond distance running (whereas Cram or Edwards could cover the discus, do you really think Foster could cover a triple-jump competition?).

Martin

It's true that it's tough to annoint "GOAT" status to an event that's only been seriously contested by women for 20 years or so ... but I think Paula has as good a claim as anyone, especially now that she has the major championship medal.

Waitz has to be respected as the trailblazer ... Ingrid has to be respected as the woman who added real speed to the event ... Benoit has to be repsected for winning a tough gold medal in LA and later running 2:21.21 ... Mota has to be respected for winning two Oly medals ...

But with a WC gold and 4 of the 5 fastest performances of all-time, I think Paula's claim is pretty solid. If, and it's a big if, she butresses this with gold in '08, then it's a lock. (and no, she doesn't need to win Boston - it's a dead race that won't ever compete with London again).

Martin

I would like to see the BBC bring in a truly knowledgable distance commentator who is in touch with feeling within the sport (Hutchings possibly). Cram and Foster do not swim in the same waters as most of the athletics fans in the UK, when was the last time they attended the inter counties or the National or a regional track meet as a fan of the sport? The only people I would retain in the BBc team are Edwards and Johnson, I would like to see Edwards as the anchorman, he's calm, efficient, gives a good image to our sport (other than his association with Andy Norman) and actually knows something about it. Barker is a joke, would we have Gary Linekar on athletics coverage? She serves no purpose than ask banal questions which a 5 year old would answer. She must have kitted herself out at a C&A closing down sale ten years ago. The sport has to be dynamic, not some old hat middle class crap like Wimbledon, our sport can be truly exciting.

We need to get rid of the 'jobs for the boys' mentallity at the BBC, even Curbishley has a job now, if thats nothing to do with Cram I'll eat my hat.

I like Sue Barkers wig.

Turbo curbo is being bonked by Cram.

Great way to get a job! NOT!

old news.

I actually don't think Barker is that bad, I think she replaced Roger Black mid way through one of the games and it was a noticable improvement. I disagree with your Foster/Cram view, Cram is much more up-to-date with who the competitors are than you give him credit for, not just in the distance events but across the board. Foster doesn't recognise anyone. And as has been said before, his relentless promotion of Nova International events really grates. To give him his due I think he is much better when giving opinion pieces, if they just had him doing this rather than the commentary it would be a big improvement.

krissy wrote:

She's still has to win the mother of all road marathons Boston and the Olympics.

I assume this is a joke, no-one gives a toss about Boston any more.

Re: commentary. What amazes me is that commentators seem to miss so much. I was watching the men's marathon on I noticed quite clearly when Baldini suddenly pulled up by the roadside - let's face it, he stuck out like a sore thumb. Quite a major point in the race given that he is the Olympic Champion and one of the favourites. About five minutes later Faoster says something like "Oh! I think Baldini is having problems."

Anyway Foster bashing has become a bit of a national sport. Actually I don't think he's that bad but as Martin has pointed out there seems to be conflict of interests and I suspect that his position in the commentary box is somewhat secured by his other commercial activities. I think he gets a bit frustrated at the lack of non-African athletes in the distance events - makes the pronunciation even more difficult for him. If he did go, one of the problems would be replacing him - there are few other distance runners would register at all with the viewing public. Having said that, Charlie Spedding has done a few bits on 5Live and comes across very well. Mike Gratton is good also - very eloquent and knowledgable.

Cram does a good job on the whole. I don't whether he's that intelligent or not but sounds fine - and he's the current Chairman English Institute of Sport so you'd hope he's something. Jackson is a joke and looks like a puppet next to MJ. Sally has continued to be useless - to be fair her job is not easy but there are no signs of her getting any better. Sue Barker is okay, but is a bit too wooden. I agree that Edwards would make a better anchor person. Dickenson and Storey are pretty solid in what thhey say.

So anyway that's

Foster

Cram

Gunnel

Barker

Johnson

Jackson

Edwards

Storey

Dickenson

A lot more commentators than medallists!!!!!!!

"A lot more commentators than medallists!"

LOL - best post of the lot!

Martin

By the way ... has anyone seen Dickenson and Storey in the same room at the same time? Surely we're talking a "Ron Atkinson/Judith Chamlers" (They're both fat, they're both always tanned and they both wear lots of jewerly) split personality here?

Martin

I'd love to know who is doing the wardrobes, Jackson went from presenting medals ina deniim jacket to a three piece suit with pink tie for a bog standrad commentary day??? He has more clothes changes per day than Kate Moss. At least Johnson has dropped the dog tooth checks of two seasons ago. I don't think Foster will eb around taht much longer, already doesn't do the domestic meets. Did anybody see the letter by Lindsay Dunn in AW a few weeks ago, absoloutely spot on...