Why don't runners have ANY CONCEPT of drafting?

The density here is impressive. You are correct, at cycling speeds and running speeds. this totally changes with a 15-20mph headwind/crosswind, which the entire field faced last saturday. While riding the course I was almost blown off my bike on at least two occasions, this was not some pansy wind. A gale changes that pie chart dramatically. I'm not sure what part of this you aren't understanding... when the runners velocity through the air starts hitting cycling numbers, that frontal area suddenly starts having a LOT more effect.

CoronaMan wrote:

You're the partridge.

Of course a runner has a greater frontal area. Thats not the point.

If you looked at a pie chart of resistance for cyclists vs runners wind would be almost the entirety of the pie chart for a cyclist. That segment would be a very small portion of the pie chart for a runner.

its all about percentage of overall resistance.

CoronaMan wrote:

I agree with OP....

BUT the reason that drafting is critical in cycling and less important in running is primarily due to the forces that you are overcoming in each sport. On a flat road, the VAST majority of a cyclist's output is spent overcoming wind resistance (drag, which is primarily a function of frontal area). Rolling resistance and drivetrain loss are the other factors and they are extremely small forces when compared to wind resistance.

In running, the major force that you are overcoming is gravity and drag is a very small component of total resistance.

SO, while wind resistance matters, its importance is far less impactful than in a sport like cycling. As others have said, hitting apexes on a course might be a greater factor than drag.

You all are missing this point.

Yes, drafting does make a difference in running ranging from extremely small to the difference between lead and chase packs.

Exponential scaling aside, running force goes into catching your fall and lifting your body off of the ground, as well as forward propulsion.

Sprinters running similar paces to cyclists (25+mph) can expect around 4% improvement from illegal tailwinds that fully offset their pace. Cyclists drafting at that pace can expect around 30% improvement.

I agree a lot of folks have no clue about drafting.

What I see more often is morons that don’t run the tangents. Plenty of times I’m drafting behind someone and I have to call out to them, let’s run the tangents.

Ace_of_Base wrote:

I agree a lot of folks have no clue about drafting.

What I see more often is morons that don’t run the tangents. Plenty of times I’m drafting behind someone and I have to call out to them, let’s run the tangents.

Yes! My God this blows my mind. If I'm walking from one side of a room to the other, I don't walk the whole way along the wall. I walk directly through the room. Why do people have such a hard time with that running down a road?

I live in a windy area, where there is noticeable wind every day. You do notice it in your running times, training or racing. On an out and back run there are very noticeable differences between running into the wind and returning with it at your back. It can be anything from a couple of seconds per mile to 10 secs per mile plus.

Wind probably affects club runners more than elites, as the body shape and BMI of a club runner will typically be larger.

Note that when treadmill running, it is recommended to increase the incline to compensate for lack of air resistance.

The concept of drafting is sound, and done right, can make a difference.

Part of it is that there isn't a culture of drafting in running. In cycling everyone knows that at some point it will be their turn on the front, I don't think runners would get that.

Personally, I find drafting really difficult. I tried it in a recent very windy race but I either ended up running too slow or had to get so close that I risked colliding with someone if there was even a slight change of pace.

A lot of runners are introverted, quirky, socially awkward people. They probably weren't expecting someone to talk to them mid-race.

I'm a big talker during long races. I love talking during the first half to help stay loose and avoid going too hard too early. It's rare that I get people to really talk back. A lot of people take themselves and their races too seriously and choose to avoid all contact with their fellow competitors. Occasionally though, I'll get someone to bite. We strike up a conversation, agree to work together, and we end up beating everyone else around us who didn't want to have any part in the conversation.

I find the benefits of drafting to be more psychological than actually physical. I've been in really windy races before, and I'll move up behind a guy and expect to feel the wind come to a halt like I just closed the window on a windy day, but it doesn't. I still feel like the wind is hitting me the same as it was when no one was there.

When you're in a pack, however, it's easier to keep cadence and avoid letting the wind beat you. When I'm out running solo and the wind is just hammering down on me, it feels like I'm the only one in the storm, and I spend the whole time worrying that people are going to catch me, because I can feel myself running slower than I should be. When I'm in a big pack, however, everyone is in it together, and as soon as one person starts to give in and fall back a bit, I can just cling to the pack and keep cadence. If I'm solo, as soon as I start to give in to the wind a bit, it's over. I'm only going to get slower. But with a pack, it's unlikely that the entire pack will give in to the wind at the same time. You're also not worried about someone catching you, because everyone is right with you.

Also, letsrun posting tip:

I get why you mentioned the times you guys were on pace for. It made sense in the context of the point you were trying to make. But try to avoid mentioning times when posting here. Idiots and trolls will cling to those numbers and use them as ammo for their low-effort troll responses. It will incite jealousy in slower runners who can't run that fast, and they'll chime in just to call you a loser, and it will insult insecure faster runners who feel offended that you are pleased with your own race times...

Runners get drafting what do you call Kipchoge's flying "V"?

For normal people, you got to share the draft.

Some turd tried to tuck behind me on the wind each time so I slowed down and hung him out to dry (wasn't racing hard didn't care about my time but I do care that he's trying to get me to do the work).

Another windy race that I did care about - me and dude weren't giving an inch to each other but both faced the wind equally and nailed out out hard and who ever could hang out the longest won. That was fun.

Yeah, the pack should have just taken turns drafting off each other and reeled Rupp in........

physics defiant wrote:

Yeah, the pack should have just taken turns drafting off each other and reeled Rupp in........

I think you're being sarcastic, but there is some truth to this. Also, places 2-4 in the men's race all wanted to break each other, so working together wouldn't have been a good strategy for those guys. But places 5+ could really have worked better together in miles 13-20 ish when the pack hadn't yet been broken up.

I saw a sticky bottle for multiple seconds

I've raced in both cycling and running too. Running at 5 minute miling, even with no wind, you definitely feel the wind resistance. I guess some runners lack the tactical awareness to care about it though?

We do but it is not as important as cycling. Wind drag is exponentially greater as velocity increases. So drag of the same object at 25mph is more than 4 times that at 12mph. There are other factors too such as how much benefit you get with the spacing required not to hit the other persons legs.

I think studies have shown pretty conclusively drafting does offer a benefit in running but nowhere near that of cycling, and if it throws off your cadence it goes down further.

You raise an interesting question. Link below is to an article from a Stryd blog. Part of the answer to your question is that the relationship between wind resistance and speed is non-linear. From your cycling you probably know that at 12 mph you don't really need to drop down into the aerobars or draft while at 22 mph wind resistance has a much more significant impact. It is possible that as we learn more about power output and running, drafting in running will become a strategy vs. dumb luck. Power meters are very common in cycling and when someone is at their FTP power output at say 225 watts and they turn into a headwind and try to hold the same speed in cycling they will see a spike in power output just to hold their speed constant. We don't get that same immediate feedback when running

https://blog.stryd.com/2019/12/20/air-resistance-increases-with-speed/

I ran the Trials and DNFd at 21 due to injury.

The hills and wind certainly didn't help, but once you run with a Stryd (with wind) it really does open your eyes to how much of an impact wind has on your running.

If you have a Stryd account you can see the activity here:

https://www.stryd.com/powercenter/runs/5108564648722432

Some of the sections on the course have a gust where I get + 25% more power just from the added air resistance. It absolutely felt like that on race day, and I did not draft one bit (because I was off the back).

To give an example, during an extremely gusty stretch I was running 6:05 mile pace into the headwind with +25% air power resistance. The power for this section was 331W.

After the gust died down I was able to run 5:24 pace at 315W. So 40s faster per mile pace, at 15W less.

Primo Numero Uno wrote:

We do but it is not as important as cycling. Wind drag is exponentially greater as velocity increases. So drag of the same object at 25mph is more than 4 times that at 12mph. There are other factors too such as how much benefit you get with the spacing required not to hit the other persons legs.

I think studies have shown pretty conclusively drafting does offer a benefit in running but nowhere near that of cycling, and if it throws off your cadence it goes down further.

That is a really good point @Primo Numero Uno.

Again, I'm by far a runner first and crappy cyclist second, but when cycling with experienced riders, I feel comfortable settling in around 3 inches off someone's wheel at about 25-30 mph.

When running, I would never have my front foot come within 3 inches of the kick of the person in front of me. I would need to give some more space. Moving back would minimize the impact of drafting.

I still think that drafting would be really beneficial in groups, hence my reference to the Oly Trials where large clumps of people were near each other without really working together. Also, as a few posters have mentioned, the sub 2 project appreciated this. The group had Kipchoge covered much of the race without risking foot collisions.

It's because a lot of long distance runners are hippies and opposed to the draft.

semi_pro wrote:

That is a really good point @Primo Numero Uno.

Again, I'm by far a runner first and crappy cyclist second, but when cycling with experienced riders, I feel comfortable settling in around 3 inches off someone's wheel at about 25-30 mph.

When running, I would never have my front foot come within 3 inches of the kick of the person in front of me. I would need to give some more space. Moving back would minimize the impact of drafting.

I still think that drafting would be really beneficial in groups, hence my reference to the Oly Trials where large clumps of people were near each other without really working together. Also, as a few posters have mentioned, the sub 2 project appreciated this. The group had Kipchoge covered much of the race without risking foot collisions.

Yeah sticking close enough to a person to get a big. drafting benefit can be a bit nerve racking when running compared to cycling. Things like stride length and cadence differences make it tough to stay really close to someone. Bike movement is a lot smoother. The other thing is that fast cycling is pretty much a straight on headwind caused by your speed. Gusts and the like are more likely. to result in a bit of a crosswind. It is a lot hard to get a good draft position for that.

forcerunner wrote:

I ran the Trials and DNFd at 21 due to injury.

The hills and wind certainly didn't help, but once you run with a Stryd (with wind) it really does open your eyes to how much of an impact wind has on your running.

Some of the sections on the course have a gust where I get + 25% more power just from the added air resistance. It absolutely felt like that on race day, and I did not draft one bit (because I was off the back).

To give an example, during an extremely gusty stretch I was running 6:05 mile pace into the headwind with +25% air power resistance. The power for this section was 331W.

After the gust died down I was able to run 5:24 pace at 315W. So 40s faster per mile pace, at 15W less.

Thanks @forcerunner. That is really interesting to get your perspective from the actual race.

Also, sorry you had a bad run. I'm sure that was really frustrating after doing so much work to get to the trials.