Genetics or Training???

Um, it takes more than belief, but belief is a fine start. However, without belief, forget it.

So if it's not just belief, then the possibility exists that Caucasians simply don't have the ability to run with the Africans? Your statement "without belief, forget it" could just as meaningfully read "without ability, forget it."

I think college guy makes a good point here: "Those with talent argue that they have none so that we will praise their accomplishments all the more. They fail to recognize that it is the special attributes with which they were born and the discovery of their gifts combined with their years of toil that makes them special."

I have never known a great runner who didn't believe his/her hard training was the key to success. But these runners have no way to get out of their personal frame of reference to understand how their training compares, relatively, to others. They also have no way of determing how much their talent contributes to their hard training.

Similarly, when someone says that the Africans or any other group "trains harder" than someone else, this is a clear Chicken Or Egg situation. Are they training harder because they are more willful, determined, motivated, and goal-oriented. Or are they training harder because their talent makes it easy for them to train hard?

On this board, we could debate forever the relative importance of vo2 max in distance running success. But few would deny that it has some relevance.

Genetic studies are tough: In one, a leading research group found that baseline vo2 max, ie, genetic vo2 max, differed by about 50 percent in a study population that included only American/Canadian whites and blacks (presumably all of West African descent.)

If the population had included East Africans, it seems very likely that the genetic component would have climbed beyond 50 percent.

Here's a brief quote from the study: "In the same population, we have earlier reported a maximal heritability of ~50% for the baseline O2 max data (3)."

Here's the fulltext, free access link:

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/88/2/551

ronb said: "The results from Qatar say it all.....Why did the Coaches

not recruit Nigerians, Ghanians, Jamaicans, Trinidadians, Black Americans or Brits......to run in the distance events??? Why did they recruit East Africans???

What are the results???"

There are many obvious political reasons for recruiting fast Kenyans as opposed to fast Britons!!!

The results are, a fast Kenyan stayed fast, and improved his life.

Ajuksnerrad wrote:

There are many obvious political reasons for recruiting fast Kenyans as opposed to fast Britons!!!

There are zero political reasons. There is one pragmatic reason. Kenyans are faster. Case closed.

Hahahaha! Good point, actually.

But, if there were 5 x 3:30 guys from Britain, Spain, wherever....the recruiting of Kenyans by Quatar is easiest poltically. For a variety of reasons.

But, if there were 5 x 3:30 guys from Britain, Spain, wherever....the recruiting of Kenyans by Quatar is easiest poltically. For a variety of reasons.

List these "reasons"? I've got a sneaking suspicion that you are talking out of your arse. It may very well be cheaper to recruit Kenyans, but if the Brits or whatever were better, they'd buy them instead. They don't care about having a team or even having a "competitive" team, the Quataris just want a winning team, and they have the money to buy one. Nothing "political" about it.

ronb said "The 800/1500 runners should not be part of this discussion....Clearly the factors required for world-class performance in these events can be inherited/produced in most areas of the globe."

Now that's interesting! 800m /1500m success has nothing to do with "genetic factors" but 100m / 10000m does?

I wonder what this discussion would look like in 1976? Would we be talking about genetic superiority of Scandinavians?

What percentage of the 300 Million people in USA have an upbringing that prepares for running greatness, physically and psychologically? What percentage in Kenya?

When millions are inspired and motivated and preparing as kids, great things result. What is happening in fat, lazy North America?

Poor reading.....again....

No-one said that 800/1500 running success has nothing to do with genetic factors.....you need to slow down and read and process information, rather than just reacting from a totally biased perspective....

The obvious, to most people, reality is that in those events closest to the zone of performance where speed meets endurance (stated simplistically, I realize) there are a variety of genetic factors which could impact the performance one way or the other.

In the '70s, the Africans were just getting started....Some would argue they still are just getting started.

Ever heard of blood-doping??? Ask the Finns about it, sometime....Several were caught....others weren't...

It isn't just fat, lazy North America.....although that's a factor for sure.

An interesting study would be to assess when the Industrial Revolution affected what % of the population,

and how that has impacted the "natural" fitness of the

offspring of those people.

Which is not to say that specific populations can't work systematically and with support to overcome those factors....of course that is possible, and should be a goal of all "first" world Nations...particularly in the schools.

Or that individuals in any country can't rise to the top.

None of which disputes the obvious fact that Kenyan and Ethiopian and a few other Nations are "spitting out" World Level distance runners at a rate that far surpasses any other argument, other than there are a lot of naturally gifted distance runners there.

Why do people always talk about "fat lazy North Americans" as the reason behind their relative lack of prowess? I doubt any of the top runners in NA were ever fat and likely not very lazy either. It's as if people think that because obesity is a problem with the rest of the population it has somehow infected our runners and is slowing them down.

I'm sure there are plenty of talented people in NA who could be great but I doubt there are that many hidden under a thick layer of blubber.

"No-one said that 800/1500 running success has nothing to do with genetic factors.....you need to slow down and read and process information, rather than just reacting from a totally biased perspective...."

Hahahaha! That's funny for so many reasons. I'm a poor reader? Also, I already know what your totally biased perspective is. That's why I moved the discussion here. I mean, c,mon...look at my name!

Yes, I've heard of blood doping. And EPO. By "natural fitness", do you mean that....well....please elaborate on that, ronb.

"None of which disputes the obvious fact that Kenyan and Ethiopian and a few other Nations are "spitting out" World Level distance runners at a rate that far surpasses any other argument, other than there are a lot of naturally gifted distance runners there."

And there's that perspective!

ANY country that has millions of kids inspired and active in a system which completely values the sport and what it takes to be the best will spit them out! "Naturally gifted" is not THE reason. But, I guess you'll tell me I'm reading poorly again.

Welcome to letsrun, Ron.

just look at J. Wariner..

[quote]Just some white dude wrote:

Please explain how:

* the vast majority of the top finishers in the Sprint Events are of West-African descent

* the vast majority of the top finishers in the Distance Events are of East or North African descent.

THE TOP SRINTERS FROM WEST AFRICA ARE DUE TO GENETICS.

THE TOP DISTANCE RUNNERS FROM EAST AFRICA ARE DUE TO DRUGS.

Simply saying that somebody wins a race because a person is ?naturally faster?, in effect, denies the years of time, effort, and sweat that a person invests to attain success. Each person that embarks on any career has an interest in the activity, a certain amount of love for the activity, and some natural ability. Granted, there is some inconclusive DNA research that indicates people from certain regions may have natural abilities toward jumping and running. However, it has been stated that presently, these regions have little or no advantage in running and jumping. The facts are that there are many factors, which affect how a person performs athletically.

Here are just a few of those factors: Training with the right coaches, nutrition, equipment, effort, dedication, years of time investment, desire, and yes, natural ability. I am sure that there are more factors, but my point is made. Natural ability is only one of the many factors that contribute to a person winning a race. It is not even in the top four of the most important factors.

Thus, it would not be wrong to say natural speed was responsible for a certain race?s dominance in sprinting events, if it were true. However, the facts and evidence speak more towards a combination of factors being responsible for dominance. I do not care how much creatine a body produces. If a person has no desire, no dedication, and no training that person will not be successful. Before you dismiss my statements because you believe I am a leftist, liberal let me tell you this: I am definitely not a liberal nor am I a leftist. I am a critical thinker. That means that my opinions are effected by proven knowledge and factual evidence. My opinions are tempered because I understand that I do not know everything and the human race does not know everything. All the evidence and all the studies are far from complete on this issue, but what I have read and experienced so far still points to a many factor theory being true.

What you have done is assumed that the presence of a certain factor is the only thing that affects an outcome. In fact, many factors contribute to the outcome.

One last comment. Saying genetics is the cause of winning gives athletes an excuse to dismiss their own lack of dedication, desire, and work. Instead, why not encourage athletes to work harder and seek the best coaches.

Dear Old Coach,

You are talking to another Old Coach.....

Having coached distance running for most of the last 40 years, and having been lucky enough to coach many, many champions, record-holders, Olympians, etc., I have always encouraged athletes of all levels to train hard and commit themselves to the task of being the best they can be....

Again, I have heard no-one say that only genetics contributes to the outcome.....not me, not anyone that I have heard....

But to deny the reality of current East African running performances is pure fantasy, in my opinion.

So, Old Coach......

1) If your task was to produce a World Record Holder in the 10000 metres, and you were given the opportunity to talent identify the 100 fittest 16 year olds in any Country in the World.....which Country would you go to???

2) If your task was to produce a World Record Holder in the

100 metres, and you were given the opportunity to talent identify the 100 fittest 16 year olds in any country in the World......which Country would you go to????

If the answer to questions 1 and 2 are not the same Country, then my point is made.....

Hang in there, Old Coach.....not many of us left.....

ron b, What gets that 16yr old to that level?? What needs to be done so that thousands of 16yr olds are ready for the big time? Right now, some coutries are doing what is required and some countries are not. But I don't think any one country has the secret (translation - genetic advantage?) to this. Its the desire, not some kind of genetic endowment. I think thats the essense of this discussion.

“It is more of a mental thing with the European runners,” confirmed Viren. “If you believe you can win, anyone can win. With most non-African born runners they just don’t believe anymore.”

African dominance:

Rosa: The Kenyan runners are naturally self-motivated because being a successful athlete and coming out means to change lifestyle, to help family, to build a future. Many famous athletes are examples to the young generations. The Kenyan runners are strongly self-motivated and for that reason they are used to sacrificing themselves to improve and achieve good performances.

Hermens: It has to do with living circumstances. The Africans are motivated, coming from poor areas. Europeans and Americans have a good life—why train your butt off to do well in the marathon? Americans and Europeans can do better [financially] in other sports. I don’t see a lot of millionaire marathoners.

Besides economics, the Africans live at altitude, and their societies have developed as runners over thousands of years. Most of the runners in Kenya come from one tribe—their running is determined by thousands of years of evolution. They were not trained for the marathon before, which is why they weren’t good [until recently]. There are cultural and social reasons as well. We [Westerners] haven’t had much incentive for exercise for the last 30 years.

Wagner: The African’s way of living is completely different. It is a struggle to survive. From a young age they have jobs—carry their sister or brother, carry water, bring maize home… . Their schools are 10 kilometers or 10 miles away and they have no transportation, so they run. They have poor conditions and need to work for food just to survive. Nothing is easy. Their way of living is key to improving their capacity. They also have mental strength, the strength to come through something. Where Tegla is from, there are maybe 10 girls who have a better capacity, but it is not just the body, it is the brain. You need a strong idea: "I will make it." She has determination that she will train and be her best. Even, for example, when the Kenyan Amateur Athletic Association did not select her for the world championships several times, she still trained.

RAFAEL PALMIERO wrote:

[quote]Just some white dude wrote:

Please explain how:

* the vast majority of the top finishers in the Sprint Events are of West-African descent

* the vast majority of the top finishers in the Distance Events are of East or North African descent.

THE TOP SRINTERS FROM WEST AFRICA ARE DUE TO GENETICS.

THE TOP DISTANCE RUNNERS FROM EAST AFRICA ARE DUE TO DRUGS.

Rafael Palmeiro....You are sad, bitter and more than a bit stupid. What a ridiculous quote....Please tell us more about this national doping conspiracy that apparently exists in what are some of the poorest countries in the world.... Actually, don't bother...Just go to bed!