Semenya update: IAAF argues she is "biologically male with a female gender identity" in new 163 page doc

ukathleticscoach wrote:

The rule only came into place in 2011. Caster struggled to break 2 in 2013-2015 so the testosterone restrictions-were clearly having an affect. It is however difficult to completely reverse the effects of over a decade of increased testosterone on the body.

Well, she did end up as Olympic champ in 2012 after all... but yes, not exactly dominant, whereas now she dominates even her roided up 1:55 competition. I don't think anyone argues against the testosterone restrictions having an affect. Unfortunately she changed her attitude - after complying in 2011, she is now suing and suing, and apparently winning.

The more I read about it, the more I wonder whether the IAAF botched this case on purpose (wasting years; singling out her distance, plus one higher and lower; singling out her 46 XY DSD; using questionable science; officially calling her "biologically male"). As if they wouldn't have any professional lawyers and scientists... I was really surprised that CAS accepted the IAAF reasoning, but not all that the next court stopped that ruling.

Very interesting conversation from the crowd here that is aware of the situation and what is at stake. The court of public opinion - if 'public' means people who don't really know what's going on and don't come to this site - is who's really deciding this. Is is simply too un-PC to relegate the women's 800 medalists to men's competition (at which they wouldn't be competitive at any adult level). It will take something like paparazzi catching Semenya unshaven (no possibility of intentionally showing up in public with 5:00 shadow of course) to sway the masses and have the worldwide narrative change. Hopefully something like this happens, otherwise adios to sex-based divisions. Most States allow boys into girls HS sports already. Ditto NCAA. CeCes will increase in number if there is no rule impeding this. WNBA will just become a minor-league farm league. This is no joke.

All the results of Semenya and similar men (Niyonsaba & Wambui) should be removed from women's history.

These are the Olympics and WC finals where Semenya is considered the champion:

2009 WC real champion: Janeth Jepkosgei

2011 WC real champion: Janeth Jepkosgei (3 time consecutive world champion)

2012 OG real champion: Ekaterina Poistogova (later banned for doping) or Pamela Jelimo (2 time consecutive Olympic champion)

2016 OG real champion: Melissa Bishop

2017 WC real champion: Ajeé Wilson

Those are the real champions in my opinion. Hope those athletes and their families now think so too.

ukathleticscoach wrote:

The rule only came into place in 2011. Caster struggled to break 2 in 2013-2015 so the testosterone restrictions-were clearly having an affect. It is however difficult to completely reverse the effects of over a decade of increased testosterone on the body.

Not according to the document. On the top of page 17 it says she was "suspended" for 6 months while she began taking the medication and resumed competing in 2010 (middle of page 17). Therefore she began taking it in early 2010 or late 2009. It lists her performances after that:

1:56 in 2011

1:57 in 2012 and silver at the OGs

Injury/problems in 2013-2014

1:59 in 2015

Which is why I said she ran 1:57 on 2-3 years of hormone therapy.

czxcz wrote:

All the results of Semenya and similar men (Niyonsaba & Wambui) should be removed from women's history.

These are the Olympics and WC finals where Semenya is considered the champion:

2009 WC real champion: Janeth Jepkosgei

2011 WC real champion: Janeth Jepkosgei (3 time consecutive world champion)

2012 OG real champion: Ekaterina Poistogova (later banned for doping) or Pamela Jelimo (2 time consecutive Olympic champion)

2016 OG real champion: Melissa Bishop

2017 WC real champion: Ajeé Wilson

Those are the real champions in my opinion. Hope those athletes and their families now think so too.

Well, that would be a lot better than the current situation (although I wouldn't call them men). In an ideal world, the blood doper and roid user would be out too, so:

2009 WC real champion: Janeth Jepkosgei

2011 WC real champion: Janeth Jepkosgei (3 time consecutive world champion)

2012 OG real champion: Pamela Jelimo (2 time consecutive Olympic champion)

2016 OG real champion: Melissa Bishop

2017 WC real champion: Melissa Bishop

David S wrote:

ukathleticscoach wrote:

The rule only came into place in 2011. Caster struggled to break 2 in 2013-2015 so the testosterone restrictions-were clearly having an affect. It is however difficult to completely reverse the effects of over a decade of increased testosterone on the body.

Not according to the document. On the top of page 17 it says she was "suspended" for 6 months while she began taking the medication and resumed competing in 2010 (middle of page 17). Therefore she began taking it in early 2010 or late 2009. It lists her performances after that:

1:56 in 2011

1:57 in 2012 and silver at the OGs

Injury/problems in 2013-2014

1:59 in 2015

Which is why I said she ran 1:57 on 2-3 years of hormone therapy.

Clearly takes time to have full effect. By the end of 2015 she couldn't beat 2.02. What is that if not the result of hormone therapy? Her scientific advisers have claimed that she would lose around 7 seconds on her current level if she undertook hormone therapy. So, 2.02. Testosterone works.

Armstronglivs wrote:

David S wrote:

Not according to the document. On the top of page 17 it says she was "suspended" for 6 months while she began taking the medication and resumed competing in 2010 (middle of page 17). Therefore she began taking it in early 2010 or late 2009. It lists her performances after that:

1:56 in 2011

1:57 in 2012 and silver at the OGs

Injury/problems in 2013-2014

1:59 in 2015

Which is why I said she ran 1:57 on 2-3 years of hormone therapy.

Clearly takes time to have full effect. By the end of 2015 she couldn't beat 2.02. What is that if not the result of hormone therapy? Her scientific advisers have claimed that she would lose around 7 seconds on her current level if she undertook hormone therapy. So, 2.02. Testosterone works.

She ran 1:59 in 2015. And it was August, in Beijing -- Rudisha won that race in 1:45. I literally wrote that in the post you quoted.

I came back to this thread hoping to see some study showing a comparison between DHT and Testosterone on performance, guess that was hoping for too much :/

So you need an academic to tell you there's an advantage in testosterone. Of course you do.

People keep bringing up hyperandrogenism as though it's relevant to Semenya, an idea reinforced once again by the 2016 article now posted here, which is unfortunately full of all sorts of misinformation peddled by Joanna Harper. So I'm reposting info already on other threads in hopes of setting the record straight here too:

Hyperandrogenism is a condition that affects only biological females with female sex chromosomes & female reproductive systems. To have hyperandrogenism, a woman must have ovaries or at least one ovary. Semenya can't have hyperandrogenism because Semenya has XY chromosomes, functioning testes & no ovaries.

Women with hyperandrogenism have testosterone levels & sensitivity to it that's higher than other females, & this can lead to some viriliziation. However, they do not have T in the male range the way Semenya does because, unlike Semenya, they do not have testes. Nor do they have male androgen receptors & typically-male sensitivity to T like Semenya has.

The most common cause of hyperandrogenism is polycystic ovary syndrome or PCS. As its very name shows, PCS requires ovaries or at least one ovary.

Hyperandrogenism in women can also be caused by non-classic congenital adrenal hyperplasia due to 21-hydroxylase deficiency (NCAH). NCAH affects both males & females, but females with NCAH still have ovaries (as well as all the other female reproductive organs), no testes.

Women with hyperandrogenism for whatever reason typically present with acne, male-pattern baldness/receding hairlines & hirsutism, which Oxford defines as "abnormal growth of hair on a person's face and body, especially on a woman." Semenya clearly does not have acne, a receding hairline or male-pattern baldness, or hirsutism; this is evident in all the photos & videos of Semenya online. In fact, Semenya is the opposite of hirsute because a lack of male-typical facial & body hair is a telltale, defining feature of the male DSD Semenya has, which is 5-ARD (more on this below).

While some virilization can & does often occur in some females with hyperandrogenism, it's "a relatively uncommon feature of hyperandrogenism, and its presence often suggests an androgen-producing tumor." Virilization to the extent seen in XY people with functioning testes, male levels of T & male sensitivity to T like Semenya has happens rarely, if ever.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16772149

In case anyone is wondering on what basis I can make the claim that Semenya has testes & no ovaries: this was made patently clear in the summary of the Semenya decision released by CAS in early May. It was made clearer still by the IAAF in several plainly-worded additional documents clarifying Semenya's condition released in succeeding weeks.

Now that the full 163-page CAS decision has been released, the facts of Semenya's condition are even clearer. From page 73, point 292 on, the decision shows that the IAAF's position is Semenya has 5-alpha reductase deficiency, aka 5-ARD. This is a disorder or difference of male - & only male - sex development.

The genetics specialists at the NIH in the US describe 5-ARD as "a condition that affects male sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition are genetically male, with one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, and they have male gonads (testes). Their bodies, however, do not produce enough of a hormone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT has a critical role in male sexual development, and a shortage of this hormone disrupts the formation of the external sex organs before birth.

"Many people with 5-alpha reductase deficiency are born with external genitalia that appear female. In other cases, the external genitalia do not look clearly male or clearly female (sometimes called ambiguous genitalia). Still other affected infants have genitalia that appear predominantly male, often with an unusually small penis (micropenis) and the urethra opening on the underside of the penis (hypospadias).

"During puberty, an increase in the levels of male sex hormones leads to the development of some secondary sex characteristics, such as increased muscle mass, deepening of the voice, development of pubic hair, and a growth spurt. The penis and scrotum (the sac of skin that holds the testes) grow larger. Unlike many men, people with 5-alpha reductase deficiency do not develop much facial or body hair. Most affected individuals are unable to have biological children without assisted reproduction.

"Children with 5-alpha reductase deficiency are often raised as girls. Some of these individuals adopt a male gender role in adolescence or early adulthood, while others adopt a female gender role."

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency

While it is correct that Semenya is male 5-ARD, Tucker's point that with her testosterone reduced to the levels required by the IAAF she becomes a 2.00-2.01 athlete at best likely holds true.

I know you were in the midst of a discussion about how Semenya's time(s) might be affected if Semenya complied with the rule to lower testosterone...

But the headline of the last article you posted is, "Hyperandrogenism in Sport: The Caster Semenya Debate." And because of the way linked items appear on LRC, that headline & accompanying photo are unfortunately now writ large here, adding to the confusion & misinformation that continue to surround the Semenya case even now.

My post wasn't intended to contest or even question the points you've made in your posts, simply to correct the mistaken impression given by that now prominent headline (& to counter some of what's said & assumed in the Runner's World article under it, for those who bother to read it). Apologies for not making this clear at the top of my post.

While Tucker's point about Semenya's time might well be true, his assumption in that article is that Semenya is female with hyperandrogenism, which is not true.

RunRagged wrote:

Hyperandrogenism is a condition that affects only biological females with female sex chromosomes & female reproductive systems. To have hyperandrogenism, a woman must have ovaries or at least one ovary. Semenya can't have hyperandrogenism because Semenya has XY chromosomes, functioning testes & no ovaries.

This should be the quote of the day.

RunRagged wrote:

While Tucker's point about Semenya's time might well be true, his assumption in that article is that Semenya is female with hyperandrogenism, which is not true.

This should also be a quote of the day.

Hopefully this Y chromosome Male will soon be banned from women's competitions.

dunes runner wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

Hyperandrogenism is a condition that affects only biological females with female sex chromosomes & female reproductive systems. To have hyperandrogenism, a woman must have ovaries or at least one ovary. Semenya can't have hyperandrogenism because Semenya has XY chromosomes, functioning testes & no ovaries.

This should be the quote of the day.

Thanks, but an even better quote of the day is from AP: "A gynecologist (from SA testifying on Semenya's behalf) said the IAAF then pushed for the young Semenya to have surgery to cut off her testosterone."

Reminds me of childhood when the 'rents used to say, "be careful not to cut off your testosterone to spite your crotch."

From now on I'm telling my kids to be nice to me or when I die I'll cut off their testosterone without a dime.

Thank you GD and RunRagged for the thorough posts.

With the revelation that semenya is a MALE with 5-ard, this whole saga has crossed into absurdity.

We have had 10 years of PC MSM coverage portraying her as an "unusual" female with high T who has been hassled by the man because they're racist.

Every sane person feels horrible for caster as an unfortunate genetic accident, but he is NOT a female. In the plainest terms: he is a 100% male with pitiable genital development. Full stop.

Am I correct in understanding caster is in NO WAY a female? No female breasts, no ovaries, no womb?

She is only female insofar as she was labeled such by her community from birth??

The trans issue is much more germane to her eligibility. The entire IAAF focus on 400-1500m was absurd.

Caster is a male and should have to abide by the rules for any other trans person.

I personally believe MTF trans have no place in women's athletics regardless of therapy, but I guess that fight is already lost.

It boggles the mind wrote:

Thank you GD and RunRagged for the thorough posts.

With the revelation that semenya is a MALE with 5-ard, this whole saga has crossed into absurdity.

Am I correct in understanding caster is in NO WAY a female? No female breasts, no ovaries, no womb?

She is only female insofar as she was labeled such by her community from birth??

It boggles the mind wrote:

With the revelation that semenya is a MALE with 5-ard, this whole saga has crossed into absurdity.

Am I correct in understanding caster is in NO WAY a female? No female breasts, no ovaries, no womb?

She is only female insofar as she was labeled such by her community from birth??

Oops, somehow posted an empty post there, duh.

From this & everything else I've read, & the people I've spoken to, people with 5-ARD are, as you put it, NO WAY a female. No female breasts, no ovaries, no womb. They are males with XY chromosomes & a genetic anomaly that causes their genitals to improperly form within the womb. As a result, they are born with genitals that look abnormal for a males - either ambiguous or more like a typical female's.

But 5-ARD seems to affect only development in utero. Once children with 5-ARD reach pubertal age, they go through normal male puberty because "enzyme 5-AR isn’t necessary for the testosterone to have an affect on sexual maturation at this point." Their testes drop & enlarge; "the phallus will grow to look bigger, more like a penis; the voice will drop as it does in a typical male; and the child will develop male-typical facial structure, pubic and underarm hair and male-typical musculature."

The main difference is that (many, not necessarily all) males with 5-ARD never develop much in the way of facial hair, & often have little or no body hair except for under the arms & in the groin, either.

The quoted passages above are from the DSD advocacy & information org Accord Alliance, whose "mission is to promote comprehensive and integrated approaches to care that enhance the health and well-being of people and families affected by DSD by fostering collaboration among all stakeholders... We continue to fill this role by serving as the 'go-to' organization for resources and information for health care providers, patients and families, other stakeholder communities, and the general public. At the local level, we are fostering this approach by providing consultation and support to interdisciplinary teams striving to deliver the standard of care to persons with DSD."